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Ben Hollerbach

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The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« on: January 24, 2023, 11:26:52 AM »
I'm surprised I have not seen any discussion on the conceptual playground course King-Collins designed to be built on the Pit site at Pinehurst. A 24 green, 140 acre site that could play as a different course 5 days in a row, or the ultimate playground for any parties who want to rent out the whole course for a day of play.



Andy Johnson discussed the project on a recent episode of the Fried Egg podcast and in a recent article on the Fried Egg website,  Rob went into more detail on his Instagram account about the project and the routing.

I really like the idea of projects like this and the ability to pack a lot of golf into a little area. The idea of 5 courses occupying 140 acres is really intriguing when considering space and resource demand on the game today. It would be unlikely that someone would come into Pinehurst to stay for 5 days to play all 5 routing, especially with another 10 courses in the fold, but because they will soon have 10 courses, the addition of a project like this could present a wonderful addition to the property.



Eric LeFante

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2023, 02:03:03 PM »
As cool as it seems I wonder if it's too ambitious and confusing. On the 3rd hole pictured above you have to play next to/over 3 unused greens to get to the 3rd green. I'm curious if they had to make some compromises to get to 5 different routings. If they only focused on two courses and could only have 18 greens would those two be better than the 5 proposed courses?

Edward Glidewell

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2023, 02:27:05 PM »
I think they'd be better off building an eleventh course in that location than something like this. They already have the Cradle and I think concepts like this generally aren't a great use of land at a busy resort. Isn't that why the Sheep Ranch was changed at Bandon?

Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2023, 02:46:50 PM »
Is there a reason that concepts like this don't get talked about more in the context of a local private club? As in the sort of place where someone actually could play often enough to get tired of a single layout?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tim Martin

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2023, 02:50:54 PM »
This is another example of the way the game has spread its wings in the last thirty years. Short courses, reversible, himalayan style putting greens, expansive practice areas, courses with odd numbers of holes, 19th holes to settle bets, and walking only destinations are just some of the concepts that have been rolled out and subsequently embraced. It looks like a lot of fun!

Kyle Harris

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2023, 03:09:16 PM »
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2023, 03:18:11 PM »
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?




This gets at my question a little bit. Is a resort the best place for something like this or would a local club make more sense because almost all of the play is repeat play? It might be that the typical culture of a club wouldn't support it, but if that's the case, why?



Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Joe Hancock

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2023, 03:41:54 PM »
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Max Prokopy

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2023, 04:15:21 PM »
While Pinehurst does have members, it does make more sense to try this concept at a truly private club.  The short game area at nearby Kinloch is an example of a few acres with multiple greens that could be routed (and re-routed) into something fun for the members. 

Drew Harvie

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2023, 04:49:31 PM »
Don't let Rob Collins see this thread :)

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2023, 06:03:40 PM »
Joe,


Pinehurst isn’t a captive audience like Forest Dunes and the opportunity cost of the third best routing here involves courses that rhyme with -ine -eedles and -outhern -ines or -obacco -oad.


You can also make that decision in two days at Forest Dunes. Stay on property and play the other options, too.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 06:05:12 PM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2023, 06:17:17 PM »
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2023, 07:22:11 PM »
I’m confused by this situation.  It appears like King Collins is saying Pinehurst made the wrong call?  Does anyone else feel like it’s a bit of bad form for an architect to release and promote a plan for a project they didn’t win?  I guess Andy J found it newsworthy. I wonder if he’s talked to the Pinehurst group to try and learn why it wasn’t chosen? 

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2023, 05:28:25 AM »
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao


I like the Thursday routing but my trip is from Sunday to Wednesday.

Off to Southern Pines!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2023, 05:52:20 AM »
Sounds like Sheep Ranch Southwest before it became a real 18 hole course. 8)
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2023, 07:09:37 AM »
Couple things on the practical side nobody has mentioned.


1- I’d be taking a free drop 30% of the time cause my bad shots would on a different green. (Long rounds and can’t actually play the game)


2 - obviously there is a ton of extra maintenance involved. So there’s likely be guys mowing the other 72 greens pretty much till lunch every day. Most resort guests would love to pay 400$ to deal w that! Lol… this would require a massive maintenance staff and budget… they’d also be getting peppered by balls while trying to mow the rest of the place.


3 - cart paths would be impossible (big deal at pinehurst)


4 - 140 acres might work if it’s in someone’s yard… seems like you’d have better luck w this concept on a bigger property like 600 acres. I’d imagine a good amount of 90 holes on 140 acres just don’t work well and aren’t worth it either due to blindness or whatever else. It’s hilly in the sand hills, duh.


5 - if each extra green 4 x18 costs another 100k (they build usga style at pinehurst) that is an extra 7$ million you’d never get back plus the cost to maintain


The decision makers at Pinehurst are very smart. Good look them on course X

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2023, 02:20:58 PM »
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao


I like the Thursday routing but my trip is from Sunday to Wednesday.

Off to Southern Pines!
That implies that you have previously played the Thursday routing, while most likely also playing the Sunday to Wednesday routing as well.

For any given player to play all 5 routings would take them staying in the area for 5 days and playing a new routing each and every day, or spending enough time at Pinehurst over multiple trips to play each routing. In either case, unless you're a member, that seems somewhat unlikely in short order. Especially with 10 other resort courses, and dozens of other local options as well. So the time it would take for an individual, and then a collective bias, to form around rank and order of the 5 routings will take quite a bit of time.

I would not anticipate a facility like this at Pinehurst to be viewed as a marque venue, and play on it would be primarily in concert with those looking for more golf in a day. At the same time, the playground aspect of the property may make having a universal consensus of rankings among the routings moot. For most, they just won't care. To Pinehurst it would seem to fits more into the tiered structure of Thistle Due, Cradle, and Spoils.

That in itself may make it hard to justify the investment. With 9 courses today and the 10th coming soon, each additional golf opportunity at Pinehurst may end up being worth less than the previous, unless it is considered one of the best on the property or adds new value that is not being captured today. Thistle Due and the Cradle have done just that, but the value added by the Spoils may not be as high as the cost. At least in a traditional sense.


The idea of a venue like this being the centerpiece for a private establishment is interesting, but that has a much higher likelihood of having a hive-mind preference being formed around one preferred routing or inferior routing. As an additional feature at a resort property, especially with the potential for a group to rent the course as a choose your own adventure routing, the uniqueness and variety plays into their favor.

It's not surprising that Pinehurst has elected not to build the course, but I do appreciate they explored the concept as a potential new assets to their portfolio.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 04:05:33 PM by Ben Hollerbach »

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2023, 02:22:44 PM »
Couple things on the practical side nobody has mentioned.
2 - obviously there is a ton of extra maintenance involved. So there’s likely be guys mowing the other 72 greens pretty much till lunch every day. Most resort guests would love to pay 400$ to deal w that! Lol… this would require a massive maintenance staff and budget… they’d also be getting peppered by balls while trying to mow the rest of the place.

5 - if each extra green 4 x18 costs another 100k (they build usga style at pinehurst) that is an extra 7$ million you’d never get back plus the cost to maintain
In total it's only 24 greens, not 90.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2023, 02:56:54 PM »
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao


I like the Thursday routing but my trip is from Sunday to Wednesday.

Off to Southern Pines!


HA!
Last Ten Played: 
Old Toccoa Farm (GA), Thoroughbred GC (KY), Urbana CC (OH), Dayton CC (OH), Maysville CC (KY), Ross Course French Lick (IN), Covered Bridge (IN), Trout Club (OH), Elkhorn Ridge (SD), Bully Pulpit (ND)
Top 5 this year:
Yale
Culver
Hawktree
Old Toccoa Farm
Chas Muni

Tim Gallant

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2023, 04:21:29 PM »
It's certainly an interesting concept, and if KC felt they weren't the front-runners, it makes sense to do something radical.


I'd be curious to know what the brief was. Often we analyse courses and concepts without knowing the full story. Was there something Pinehurst said/wrote that made this concept feel like it could be right?


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2023, 05:00:45 PM »
The question I posed on Twitter:


When the inevitable consensus forms as to which routing(s) are superior, why would anyone want to pay $XXX to play the third best routing?


Kyle, I would tend to agree with you, and it’s likely yours and my opinion of “third best routing” would align. I would also leave room in the argument that others might prefer the third best routing…..based on their game, their preferences, etc.


The Loop has two routings….one has to be superior to the other, correct? Why would the resort bother with setting up the inferior routing every other day?

I can see people liking routings because of specific reasons such big differences in yardages, radically different bunker scheme etc.

Ciao


I like the Thursday routing but my trip is from Sunday to Wednesday.

Off to Southern Pines!

It is hard to believe that all five routings would be equally liked.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

Ira Fishman

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2023, 07:02:03 PM »
I am confused. Did Pinehurst solicit King-Collins for a design or did they do it on their own for whatever reason?




Peter Sayegh

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2023, 07:30:14 PM »
I am confused. Did Pinehurst solicit King-Collins for a design or did they do it on their own for whatever reason?
Ira, I had the same initial reaction.
The KC instagram referenced in the Fried Egg article read like they offered the idea unsolicited in late 2021.
Good for them for being proactive and looking for work (especially at PINEHURST!)...and introducing something novel.
However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.

P.S. I don't listen to podcasts so if that info/questioning was included, I apologize.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2023, 10:31:10 PM »

However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.



Why would Pinehurst even comment on a proposal they rejected, for a project they’ve just announced with someone else?  They would be undermining their own announcement.


Sean_A

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Re: The Spoils course at Pinehurst, a King-Collins concept
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 03:49:38 AM »

However, I do blame the Fried Egg for not exploring Pinehurst's reaction to the proposal.
I thought it was great they put their thoughts out in the public realm for discussion-even if it was an effort for a new project elsewhere.



Why would Pinehurst even comment on a proposal they rejected, for a project they’ve just announced with someone else?  They would be undermining their own announcement.

I was thinking the same thing. And it wouldn't be smart to talk about private Pinehurst comments.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

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