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Tim Martin

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2023, 08:00:13 PM »
8)


Good stuff Tim , and they do a lot of re-tinkering


Archie-Tom Marzolf seems to be the lead guy for most of Fazio’s restoration/renovation projects.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2023, 08:02:45 PM »
Has Fazio group done many restorations? I can’t remember any, but I’m probably missing some.


They did Inverness and Oak Hill (East), were abused for it a few years later, and stopped doing them until the market for new courses dried up.  But they did keep working at Bel Air!

jeffwarne

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2023, 11:51:14 PM »


Like others have said, the whole place never had much of an experience. It had a trunk-slamming muni feel to it (not in a good way) and was no place you'd want to hang out and spend time. The experience and golf needed a full overhaul - not a tweak or restoration of what was there. I hope it's successful.


The fact that you didn't feel compelled to hang there is why I felt compelled to go play golf there.

Those sentiments are exactly why I loved going to World Woods. Back when this was first announced I knew that was it for a "great escape". It was the type of place you could arrange 3 or 4 groups and have at it without much fuss (caddies, rules, $$$ etc)


 Tough to have low key experience and real big golf in Florida- more time goes on the less it exists.


Not quite sure what you mean. The last time I was there the clubhouse wasn’t even clean. I couldn’t wait to get in my car.


Pretty sure his point was he was there for the golf.
Our “hang” at WW was another 18 holes or an emergency 9.
I had lunch in the clubhouse and grabbed a beer or 12 to go many times.
Perfectly fine.
Give me the “muni” feel every time.





"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Rob Marshall

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2023, 09:49:47 AM »


Like others have said, the whole place never had much of an experience. It had a trunk-slamming muni feel to it (not in a good way) and was no place you'd want to hang out and spend time. The experience and golf needed a full overhaul - not a tweak or restoration of what was there. I hope it's successful.


The fact that you didn't feel compelled to hang there is why I felt compelled to go play golf there.

Those sentiments are exactly why I loved going to World Woods. Back when this was first announced I knew that was it for a "great escape". It was the type of place you could arrange 3 or 4 groups and have at it without much fuss (caddies, rules, $$$ etc)


 Tough to have low key experience and real big golf in Florida- more time goes on the less it exists.


Not quite sure what you mean. The last time I was there the clubhouse wasn’t even clean. I couldn’t wait to get in my car.


Pretty sure his point was he was there for the golf.
Our “hang” at WW was another 18 holes or an emergency 9.
I had lunch in the clubhouse and grabbed a beer or 12 to go many times.
Perfectly fine.
Give me the “muni” feel every time.


It was a great place to have a 36 hole day. It was just in the middle of no where. I believe there was supposed to be a Marriott or Hilton when they first built but it fell thru. I grew up at a Muni so the feel never bothered me. Never thought it was dirty and enjoyed every round I played there. My father had his only hole in one on the 16th at Pine Barrens.



"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

M. Shea Sweeney

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2023, 10:47:18 AM »


Like others have said, the whole place never had much of an experience. It had a trunk-slamming muni feel to it (not in a good way) and was no place you'd want to hang out and spend time. The experience and golf needed a full overhaul - not a tweak or restoration of what was there. I hope it's successful.


The fact that you didn't feel compelled to hang there is why I felt compelled to go play golf there.

Those sentiments are exactly why I loved going to World Woods. Back when this was first announced I knew that was it for a "great escape". It was the type of place you could arrange 3 or 4 groups and have at it without much fuss (caddies, rules, $$$ etc)


 Tough to have low key experience and real big golf in Florida- more time goes on the less it exists.


Not quite sure what you mean. The last time I was there the clubhouse wasn’t even clean. I couldn’t wait to get in my car.


Pretty sure his point was he was there for the golf.
Our “hang” at WW was another 18 holes or an emergency 9.
I had lunch in the clubhouse and grabbed a beer or 12 to go many times.
Perfectly fine.
Give me the “muni” feel every time.


It was a great place to have a 36 hole day. It was just in the middle of no where. I believe there was supposed to be a Marriott or Hilton when they first built but it fell thru. I grew up at a Muni so the feel never bothered me. Never thought it was dirty and enjoyed every round I played there. My father had his only hole in one on the 16th at Pine Barrens.


For me that style of golf is sort of like visiting a State Park- are those bathrooms the Four Season's? I am sure the guys climbing in Yosemite aren't quite worried about those sort of comforts... (not saying all golf needs to be that way)

The muni offers that spirit- and what's funny is a lot of the clubs that have these sacred courses are often purposely hanging/trying to deliver rawness - and subsequently everyone loves it. Or the modern destination model of putting on the fancy rawness and everyone clamoring over it.

When I first visited Ohoopee and got to the holes with the Zebras- the first thing I thought about was World Woods where you get near the cows and it feels like you could just as well be in Australia.

I once arranged a trip for a bunch of people who were keen on an adventure in the middle of nowhere / 70+ degree weather - we rented out this old horse ranch about 15 mins from World Woods- it was great. We must have had like 12 guys. We built this huge fire and cooked out all night (ourselves) and played golf all day. One of the guys who was on that trip is dead- I know that was one of his last great boondoggles - and a good one it was.

World Woods, for a moment in time, offered something unique from the rest of the state, in a peculiar way that was not exactly done on purpose- and there are many golfers who enjoy that type of "experience".





« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 11:13:31 AM by M. Shea Sweeney »

Stewart Abramson

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Steve_Lovett

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2023, 05:14:14 PM »


Like others have said, the whole place never had much of an experience. It had a trunk-slamming muni feel to it (not in a good way) and was no place you'd want to hang out and spend time. The experience and golf needed a full overhaul - not a tweak or restoration of what was there. I hope it's successful.


The fact that you didn't feel compelled to hang there is why I felt compelled to go play golf there.

Those sentiments are exactly why I loved going to World Woods. Back when this was first announced I knew that was it for a "great escape". It was the type of place you could arrange 3 or 4 groups and have at it without much fuss (caddies, rules, $$$ etc)


 Tough to have low key experience and real big golf in Florida- more time goes on the less it exists.


Not quite sure what you mean. The last time I was there the clubhouse wasn’t even clean. I couldn’t wait to get in my car.


There's a difference between a low-key experience (something like Tobacco Road as a public example or Palmetto Golf Club as a private example) and a lousy experience. World Woods became the latter.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2023, 05:28:56 PM »

Like others have said, the whole place never had much of an experience. It had a trunk-slamming muni feel to it (not in a good way) and was no place you'd want to hang out and spend time. The experience and golf needed a full overhaul - not a tweak or restoration of what was there. I hope it's successful.

The fact that you didn't feel compelled to hang there is why I felt compelled to go play golf there.

Those sentiments are exactly why I loved going to World Woods. Back when this was first announced I knew that was it for a "great escape". It was the type of place you could arrange 3 or 4 groups and have at it without much fuss (caddies, rules, $$$ etc)

 Tough to have low key experience and real big golf in Florida- more time goes on the less it exists.

Not quite sure what you mean. The last time I was there the clubhouse wasn’t even clean. I couldn’t wait to get in my car.

There's a difference between a low-key experience (something like Tobacco Road as a public example or Palmetto Golf Club as a private example) and a lousy experience. World Woods became the latter.


Steve,

While I agree with this in principle, I think there are more variables at play.

For example one can play a nice course with all the extras, great clubhouse, F&B is on point, but if the cost is high it may still be a lousy experience in terms of value and not feeling like it lived up the price.

As opposed to playing something like Mike pointed out on the other thread, no frills, Ok conditioning, basic golf, but at a great price point where one deems it a terrific experience.

Alex Miller

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2023, 06:08:55 PM »

From a business perspective...

Not sure who "they" is, but if it's Cabot I would say the answer is clearly no. There is not only a brand quality which needs to be maintained, but no doubt the marketing buzz from a "reimagined experience" on the same site weighs into the business decision. Added to the difference in green fees for a new Cabot course vs Pine Barrens, the case for the former is pretty clear.

M. Shea Sweeney

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2023, 06:19:19 PM »


Like others have said, the whole place never had much of an experience. It had a trunk-slamming muni feel to it (not in a good way) and was no place you'd want to hang out and spend time. The experience and golf needed a full overhaul - not a tweak or restoration of what was there. I hope it's successful.


The fact that you didn't feel compelled to hang there is why I felt compelled to go play golf there.

Those sentiments are exactly why I loved going to World Woods. Back when this was first announced I knew that was it for a "great escape". It was the type of place you could arrange 3 or 4 groups and have at it without much fuss (caddies, rules, $$$ etc)


 Tough to have low key experience and real big golf in Florida- more time goes on the less it exists.


Not quite sure what you mean. The last time I was there the clubhouse wasn’t even clean. I couldn’t wait to get in my car.


There's a difference between a low-key experience (something like Tobacco Road as a public example or Palmetto Golf Club as a private example) and a lousy experience. World Woods became the latter.


Steve,
Well we're getting somewhere- I played Tobacco Road several times a semester in college and somehow Palmetto lets me go there when I want. So both are near and dear to my heart.


I and many others do enjoy playing golf where THERE IS NO EXPERIENCE. And World Woods, perhaps not on purpose, sort of offered that and good holes at scale. I will miss it.







« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 06:42:40 PM by M. Shea Sweeney »

Tim Martin

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2023, 06:40:01 PM »


Like others have said, the whole place never had much of an experience. It had a trunk-slamming muni feel to it (not in a good way) and was no place you'd want to hang out and spend time. The experience and golf needed a full overhaul - not a tweak or restoration of what was there. I hope it's successful.


The fact that you didn't feel compelled to hang there is why I felt compelled to go play golf there.

Those sentiments are exactly why I loved going to World Woods. Back when this was first announced I knew that was it for a "great escape". It was the type of place you could arrange 3 or 4 groups and have at it without much fuss (caddies, rules, $$$ etc)


 Tough to have low key experience and real big golf in Florida- more time goes on the less it exists.


Not quite sure what you mean. The last time I was there the clubhouse wasn’t even clean. I couldn’t wait to get in my car.


There's a difference between a low-key experience (something like Tobacco Road as a public example or Palmetto Golf Club as a private example) and a lousy experience. World Woods became the latter.


Steve,
Well we're getting somewhere- I played Tobacco Road several times a semester in college and somehow Palmetto lets me go there when I want. So both are near and dear to my heart.


I think where we differ is I and many others enjoy playing golf where THERE IS NO EXPERIENCE. And World Woods, perhaps not on purpose, sort of offered that and good holes at scale. I will miss it.


There are not many privates that deliver both the quality golf course and social experience of Palmetto. Low key, welcoming and unassuming is embedded in their culture.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2023, 06:53:27 PM »
I and many others do enjoy playing golf where THERE IS NO EXPERIENCE. And World Woods, perhaps not on purpose, sort of offered that and good holes at scale. I will miss it.
Sounds like an anti-gentrification movement for golf courses.
My buddies and I do a golf trip every year in February.  We generally have gone to the Orlando area, but we will likely try CCF once it is open. 

Kyle Harris

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #62 on: January 26, 2023, 06:03:28 AM »
One of my litmus tests for meeting new people within the golf business was guaging their reaction to my comments on the golf carts at World Woods.

They were well maintained but an older late-90's era model.


Those that thought I was being negative about that were likely to only be interested in sucking as much cash out of golf as possible. Those that thought I was being positive about that were likely kindred spirits.

I echo the wistful rose-tinted view of the somewhat run-down nature of World Woods but also recognize it's time had passed.

I won't miss Pine Barrens nearly as much as I'll miss Rolling Oaks. I'll also miss the tee shot on the second hole of the three practice holes.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Brett Meyer

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2023, 07:36:18 AM »

From a business perspective...Not sure who "they" is, but if it's Cabot I would say the answer is clearly no. There is not only a brand quality which needs to be maintained, but no doubt the marketing buzz from a "reimagined experience" on the same site weighs into the business decision. Added to the difference in green fees for a new Cabot course vs Pine Barrens, the case for the former is pretty clear.

It's a fair question, although it could only be realistically posed before Cabot became the new owner. A product represents its brand, and Cabot in my view doesn't appear to be a brand that would embrace a 'pre-renaissance' architect as you term it, Brett.

A different ownership group certainly could've taken that restoration angle. But with Congaree, Gozzer Ranch, and other well maintained Fazio designs elsewhere, Cabot's decision to overhaul the course with a next-gen architect seems more appropriate for its brand strategy and customer base.

I've been thinking about the branding issue since Michael posted about it and Alex raises it too, so I'll give my take. First of all, I think I agree with you that from a PR guy perspective, reimagining the architecture of Pine Barrens in the mold of the other Keiser/Cabot resorts makes sense. People know those brands, the content is always good. They (the group of people who's in charge here) have had a successful product and when they've added to it, it's been well received and successful. Why mess with that?

Well, two reasons in this case I think. The first is because of their strong brand. When you've created a strong brand, more than trust in the product itself, you've created trust in the people who produce it. You might say that what makes the Keiser/Cabot brand is a certain style of golf course architecture, but I'd give them more credit than that: the brand is great golf course architecture on great land, not a certain style of architecture (I'd doubt that most of the guys who go to Bandon know the difference between a Doak and a Fazio). The brand is these guys; they know how to pick 'em. Whatever they do, you know that it's going to be good because their batting average is about 1.000 in at least a dozen at-bats.

To me, that gives them the latitude to do something that's architecturally a bit different. Whatever they do, you can trust that it's going to be good because these guys have proven that they know what good is. And (2) I think that Fazio's Pine Barrens was an example of very good/great architecture and that restoring it would have been completely on-brand in this broader sense. I think it deserved their blessing. It would have added further architectural variety to their stable of courses and shown that their brand isn't just about a certain style or a small stable of architects coming from the same design tradition.

Now I wouldn't say that they should have made no changes. Adding some new back tees on the holes starting at the three-way intersection (2, 7, 12) would have shortened the walking distances. A few trees could have come down on 17 and 18. They really should have lost the right green on 12. Maybe they could have made it a bit flashier in some of the flashy spots. But they should have retained the bones of each of the holes. The course was good enough to deserve it and I think it would have shown that their brand is broader than a certain style of architecture. It's 'Guys who know what a great course is.'

Kyle Harris

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2023, 08:26:28 AM »
Batting 1.000 in a dozen at bats?

Who? What were the at bats?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Brett Meyer

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2023, 09:41:43 AM »
Batting 1.000 in a dozen at bats?

Who? What were the at bats?

Really? You can't process a simple analogy?

How about this: engage with the substance of my posts or just say nothing about them. Either is fine with me.

Maybe I should change their font?

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2023, 09:50:59 AM »
Adding some new back tees on the holes starting at the three-way intersection (2, 7, 12) would have shortened the walking distances.




I'm not sure how adding back tees shortens walking distances. It will shorten the "dead" walk for people playing those tees, but not overall and certainly not for people not playing them. That said, I'm not opposed to a few long walks anyway.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Kyle Harris

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2023, 09:51:53 AM »
Batting 1.000 in a dozen at bats?

Who? What were the at bats?

Really? You can't process a simple analogy?

How about this: engage with the substance of my posts or just say nothing about them. Either is fine with me.

Maybe I should change their font?


You said "at least a dozen at bats"

About whom are you talking? The developer or the architects?

The developers have opened two golf courses on one site with several others under various stages of development. That's hardly "at least a dozen."

If the analogy is for the developers I think the substance of your post could use some further explanation. If it's for the architects, then absolutely, but your use of pronouns with several preceding possible subjects is clear as mud.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

archie_struthers

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2023, 10:25:40 AM »
 :P


Some good discussion on this one, enjoying lots of the content. As to the reason for Citrus doing the redo/re-imagining It appears the general public / customer would enjoy the new more than a redo of the old. New typically trumps old , often to our chagrin. Shea-Sweeney and Kyle are kinded spirits with many of us in the appreciation of the beautifully simple. So many accoutrements by definition may no longer have a practical purpose but are ceremonial in nature. Perhaps that's why the old clubhouse and showers at some Main Line Clubs in Philly are protected by a dwindling and aging population . But boy are some of them "special".


Never visited World Woods but think I would have liked it , and most likely will like the new development Citrus brings. But memory of a tree that infuriated you or a bunker complex that didn't make sense may trigger a response in golf strategy that got you.


To Tim's point on Tom Marzolf agree that Tom Fazio hasn't been in the renovation business for a long time , but did work for his uncle George early in his career, for sure at my beloved Greate Bay in Somers Point. I would say he's "tinkered" with the powers that be at Pine Valley for the longest time. As much as the work is all but seamless for someone who hadn't been there before I've had more than a few rants about the stuff LOL    It's the good  memories  that can reverberate and often transcends the architecture










Tim Martin

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2023, 10:34:35 AM »

  It's the good  memories  that can reverberate and often transcends the architecture


Archie gets it right as usual. Many times the company and atmosphere are what you remember more than the lacy edged bunkers.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 01:12:17 PM by Tim Martin »

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2023, 11:38:25 AM »
It is clear that travelling golfers want and will pay for adventure golf.


From Bandon to Prairie Club to Landmand to Sand Valley to Sweetens to Cabot Cape B to Streamsong, golfers willing to travel for golf are seeking-out big and bold adventure golf experiences.


It makes good business sense that Cabot Citrus would keep the petal to the metal in their dozers and push things in that direction.


Brett Meyer

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2023, 05:34:55 PM »
Batting 1.000 in a dozen at bats?

Who? What were the at bats?

Really? You can't process a simple analogy?

How about this: engage with the substance of my posts or just say nothing about them. Either is fine with me.

Maybe I should change their font?


You said "at least a dozen at bats"

About whom are you talking? The developer or the architects?

The developers have opened two golf courses on one site with several others under various stages of development. That's hardly "at least a dozen."

If the analogy is for the developers I think the substance of your post could use some further explanation. If it's for the architects, then absolutely, but your use of pronouns with several preceding possible subjects is clear as mud.

Good. Despite the snarkiness, at least I know what you're talking about now.

I'm talking about the combination of Keiser and Cowan-Dewar, aka 'Dream Golf.' I said this in my second sentence.

I know that the latter hasn't been involved in all of the former's projects, but it's clearly all one brand. I've read the same magazine about it at Bandon, Cabot, and Sand Valley.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 05:37:08 PM by Brett Meyer »

Kyle Harris

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2023, 06:44:24 PM »
Batting 1.000 in a dozen at bats?

Who? What were the at bats?

Really? You can't process a simple analogy?

How about this: engage with the substance of my posts or just say nothing about them. Either is fine with me.

Maybe I should change their font?


You said "at least a dozen at bats"

About whom are you talking? The developer or the architects?

The developers have opened two golf courses on one site with several others under various stages of development. That's hardly "at least a dozen."

If the analogy is for the developers I think the substance of your post could use some further explanation. If it's for the architects, then absolutely, but your use of pronouns with several preceding possible subjects is clear as mud.

Good. Despite the snarkiness, at least I know what you're talking about now.

I'm talking about the combination of Keiser and Cowan-Dewar, aka 'Dream Golf.' I said this in my second sentence.

I know that the latter hasn't been involved in all of the former's projects, but it's clearly all one brand. I've read the same magazine about it at Bandon, Cabot, and Sand Valley.


You might be the only person I’ve ever seen attempt to tie the success of Bandon Dunes/Sand Valley with the success of Cabot like that.


I meant no snark. Your analogy just seemed awful stretched. But to take your analogy a little farther I’d be curious which hat you think Bandon Dunes would wear on its HOF plaque. And which hat Cabot would wear.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2023, 06:55:56 PM »
I am very much looking forward to the new Cabot courses.


And I won’t forget the really good times I had at WW with my Villanova buddies. I made between 5 and 10 trips there over the years and we always left with great memories. Those box lunches at the turn were special!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:
https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Brett Meyer

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Re: Shouldn't they have just restored Pine Barrens?
« Reply #74 on: Yesterday at 06:51:00 AM »
Adding some new back tees on the holes starting at the three-way intersection (2, 7, 12) would have shortened the walking distances.




I'm not sure how adding back tees shortens walking distances. It will shorten the "dead" walk for people playing those tees, but not overall and certainly not for people not playing them. That said, I'm not opposed to a few long walks anyway.

Yes, it would shorten the 'dead' walk, not the overall walk. But my sense is that the dead walk is what people are mostly concerned about when discussing routing. The less dead walk between holes, the better.

And yes, it wouldn't shorten the walk for people not playing the back tees. But you can never have an equally short walk to all tees. Ideally, the shortest walk might be to the middle tees because that's what most people play. This is what you see on a lot of courses in the UK because the middle tees were the original tees and the back tees have been added (Walton Heath and Royal. St. George's have a lot of walkbacks to back tees).

But for me and I think for a lot of people who are concerned about this stuff, shortening the distance to the nearest set of tees, even if it's one that most people aren't playing, is a good thing.

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