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Steve_Roths

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Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« on: January 19, 2023, 04:37:31 PM »
https://beyondthecontour.com/first-look-cabot-citrus-farms/


I saw the above storyline and I think they did a great job with the before and after.


Here is my question.  Is it me or is too much exposed sand a bit much on these course.  I had the same thought when I played Sand Valley the C&C course in WI.  The pictures on the new holes at Cabot Citrus are WOW, but it just seems too much.


Kind of the less is more or leaving them wanting for more. 


Am I wrong here?

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2023, 06:40:45 PM »
I've never been there. But personally, I'm into it. Why make it look more like a "normal" golf course? I'd say go for something crazy.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2023, 06:47:18 PM »
Yes Steve, there can be.


From those photos, I prefer the aesthetic of the before to the after.


Tim_Weiman

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2023, 07:43:06 PM »
https://beyondthecontour.com/first-look-cabot-citrus-farms/


I saw the above storyline and I think they did a great job with the before and after.


Here is my question.  Is it me or is too much exposed sand a bit much on these course.  I had the same thought when I played Sand Valley the C&C course in WI.  The pictures on the new holes at Cabot Citrus are WOW, but it just seems too much.


Kind of the less is more or leaving them wanting for more. 


Am I wrong here?
Steve,


It looks to me like the architect was trying too hard. Not good.
Tim Weiman

Drew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2023, 08:12:13 PM »
Thanks for sharing my link :)


I'll get in on the discussion, and pose a question: if Tom Fazio's inspiration for Pine Barrens was Pine Valley, is it not right for Kyle Franz to try and go "all out" to give it that look, or at least draw inspirations from that golf course, when reconstructing the golf course?


PB is completely on sand, and other than the new 3rd (which is a crazy transformation), it is all unearthing maintained grass and exposing the sandy landscape.


I'll reserve judgment for when I see it in person, but Franz is clearly operating in a way to try and capture Fazio's original intent with PV from the renderings, IMO

Kalen Braley

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2023, 08:18:45 PM »
It'd be nice to get clarification if those are actual "after" pics or just renderings as pointed out in the article.  If the latter those are pretty damn realistic looking...

P.S.  I like the other holes, but that 1st one does look a bit over the top....

John Foley

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2023, 09:02:42 PM »
I saw those photo's and recognize a few of those holes. Is the routing the same?
Integrity in the moment of choice

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2023, 09:04:01 PM »
It'd be nice to get clarification if those are actual "after" pics or just renderings as pointed out in the article.  If the latter those are pretty damn realistic looking...
It's computer generated. Watch the golfers walking, for example. The course renovation isn't done yet.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2023, 09:54:39 PM »
Of course there could be too much sand.  Pine Valley isn't for everyone. 


The question is whether they can balance the design with the target audience, or, whether there is enough audience who appreciates the design to make it work.


I'm not going to make any judgment on that based on a computer rendering.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2023, 06:44:16 AM »
Appreciate the ‘photos’ are rendered but curious to know what happens to features like these opened-up sandy ones in this part of the World when tornados and big wind/rain storms occur? Not just this particular course but similar opened-up sandy features on others in the area too.
Atb
« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 08:14:16 AM by Thomas Dai »

Brad Tufts

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2023, 11:35:44 AM »
I feel like there has been some criticism in the last year or two of the sandy-scrape "look," causing some of the new courses to run together in our minds.  A first-world problem to be sure, as it requires one to visit streamsong, ohoopee, tara iti, sand valley, ballyneal, southern pines, etc. to get a sense of this...maybe it's just an idea based on all the great phots we get to see if one follows the right social media channels, etc.

Personally, I don't subscribe to this idea.  I have not been to all the places above, but aspire to at some point.  They all have nuances worth appreciating.  The industry went through 4 decades of building overwatered, tree-lined parkland golf, and if most of the new projects attempt to get back to the game's roots with sandy scrapes and the broken-ground aesthetic, then more power to them! 

I compare it to links golf...we love all links courses, but from 10,000' they all appear to be rumpled, duney courses next to the sea.  Zooming in, they all have a special character that makes we want to get back to links golf ASAP.



So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Keith Phillips

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2023, 12:02:32 PM »
I love the concept.  My guess is the finished product will resemble the work Kyle Franz has done in the Pinehurst region, which has all turned out pretty well. 

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2023, 12:42:17 PM »
Understanding the fact that they are CGI, to what extent would the appearance of excess sand be just a result of clearing out brush, trees, and undergrowth and revealing sand that was already there?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2023, 12:43:09 PM »
From a playability perspective, if they can be kept relatively firm then it should be OK. If they’re soft that could be a problem. most people won’t want to spend their day trudging through thick sand looking for half-buried balls that they’d be lucky to escape back onto grass!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2023, 01:09:59 PM »
I feel like there has been some criticism in the last year or two of the sandy-scrape "look," causing some of the new courses to run together in our minds.  A first-world problem to be sure, as it requires one to visit streamsong, ohoopee, tara iti, sand valley, ballyneal, southern pines, etc. to get a sense of this...maybe it's just an idea based on all the great phots we get to see if one follows the right social media channels, etc.

Personally, I don't subscribe to this idea.  I have not been to all the places above, but aspire to at some point.  They all have nuances worth appreciating.  The industry went through 4 decades of building overwatered, tree-lined parkland golf, and if most of the new projects attempt to get back to the game's roots with sandy scrapes and the broken-ground aesthetic, then more power to them! 

I compare it to links golf...we love all links courses, but from 10,000' they all appear to be rumpled, duney courses next to the sea.  Zooming in, they all have a special character that makes we want to get back to links golf ASAP.


Brad,


You make some good points but a couple of small counters to consider:


1. Grass does not shout “feature” at you in the same way some of these sand scrapes do. There is a little bit of aesthetic overkill going on with some designs presently.


2. That aesthetic overkill is happening when the entire site is effectively being constructed, even if in a “naturalist” fashion.


Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2023, 02:01:38 PM »
I played there when it opened - Pine Barrens was really fun - lot more open.
I'm quite certain the original intent for Pine Barrens was Pine Valley "and Pinehurst" together.

Subtle never fills the tee sheet as well as dramatic will. It's a resort. I get the intentions.
They have to change the mindset from maybe I'll play "if I'm close by" to I'll drive 3-4 hours to play.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 02:18:13 PM by Ian Andrew »
We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing.” — Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

Kalen Braley

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2023, 02:50:07 PM »
I'd be curious for those who know...how often do renderings closely resemble what's put in the ground?

Anyone have examples from other projects they'd like to share where "here's what we envisioned, and this was the final result"?

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2023, 03:30:00 PM »
Of course there could be too much sand.  Pine Valley isn't for everyone. 


The question is whether they can balance the design with the target audience, or, whether there is enough audience who appreciates the design to make it work.


I'm not going to make any judgment on that based on a computer rendering.
Tom,


I always thought Pine Valley was more about forced carries than sand with angles sometimes being critical, e.g., #6 or 16.
Tim Weiman

Ian Andrew

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2023, 03:51:23 PM »
I'd be curious for those who know...how often do renderings closely resemble what's put in the ground?

Anyone have examples from other projects they'd like to share where "here's what we envisioned, and this was the final result"?
I didn't cherry pick the best before and after, I just picked a favourite original hole (from a rebuild) and posted it.




Laval-sur-le-lac 3rd Hole - the image and close to opening



I'm a better at imagery than that now. That's an older software and higher resolution photo helps too.
I did all 18 - they knew what the rebuild would achieve. The vote passed.




« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 03:54:43 PM by Ian Andrew »
We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing.” — Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2023, 04:42:17 PM »
Of course there could be too much sand.  Pine Valley isn't for everyone. 


The question is whether they can balance the design with the target audience, or, whether there is enough audience who appreciates the design to make it work.


I'm not going to make any judgment on that based on a computer rendering.


How does Mr. Tom Doak make so much sense with so few words?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2023, 04:51:46 PM »
Thanks for sharing that Ian,

If I were a member, I'd certainly be happy with the 'before and after' result there.  Does this type of arrangement also typically come with a contractual clause that a new rendering be provided if you're unable to build that for whatever impediment you might face?

After all it could certainly be understood that one would want to see what they're buying before they drop 7-8 figures on something right? ;D

Ian Andrew

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2023, 05:19:19 PM »
Does this type of arrangement also typically come with a contractual clause that a new rendering be provided if you're unable to build that for whatever impediment you might face?
Never been asked for that. No use for the images once you build it.
What's a contract? Just kidding. Not many in this business.





We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing.” — Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2023, 06:25:19 PM »
Does this type of arrangement also typically come with a contractual clause that a new rendering be provided if you're unable to build that for whatever impediment you might face?
Never been asked for that. No use for the images once you build it.
What's a contract? Just kidding. Not many in this business.

Ha ha,

Well what I actually meant was what if a hole fundamentally changes after you present the images to the club for whatever reason, permitting, the hole corridor doesn't work, lawsuit, property line change, etc...and now you're forced to build something other than what you showed them.

P.S.  I'm sure TD is rolling his eyes at all this stuff!  ;D

Tim Martin

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2023, 06:45:08 PM »
At what point does the desired aesthetic compromise playability? I think Kyle Franz got it right with his work in Southern Pines but there has to be a tipping point. I’ll reserve judgement until the project is completed as offered by a couple of other posters.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Can There Be Too Much Sand?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2023, 07:19:32 PM »
Sand as eye candy appeals to a quirky crowd.


Count me in!  Better than the overly sodded/arboreal look.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

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