[Tim Martin]

Agree, Jeff.


Design in contour that helps the golfer and this encourages the ground game. (As my above post)


Ben, on almost all examples, you would use the same amount of ground with no contour as you would with contour. I get that sometimes a pin position over a mound calls for a low-spin shot over a nipped shot. But that specific situation arises more rarely than situations where you want to remove the unpredictability of contour.

What is this unpredictability of contour? It’s a far more predictable variable than the variables of lie, shot visualization, and strike quality. In honesty, I’d relish playing a match against someone that grabbed a lofted club every time there was contour between them and the green/hole inside of 50yds.


The word is out about variance and reduction of risk. It isn’t a fad. Even my friends that don’t know Scott Fawcett from Farah Fawcett are changing how they approach greens from shorter distances.

Ben,


I won't answer for others, but long reasonably consistent slopes, like a Redan bank are fairly predictable.  A bunch of moguls in front of the green are not and would seem to discourage the ground game.  People will fly those just like they fly over rough to the edge of the green, at least if they are smart.


But I always said I would design for the ground game when I saw a sleeve of balls that advertised "flys lower! Less spin!"  Redans work, but for the most part, I am resigned to the fact that the ground game is now from 100 yards in or escaping from trees.  BTW, low shots with roll work well on the average irrigated course at least from that <100 range.  And, I think that is okay.

Jeff-I think you have to qualify whether greens are at grade, turf is firm and the wind is up as to whether 100 yards out is the cutoff for the ground game. If you are treated to all three of these conditions then the ball can be bounced in from considerably farther out than 100 yards.

[Tom_Doak]

I've been thinking about this for years. I feel like modern launch angles have overpowered the low, running shot strategies holes like the Biarritz or Redan. I just think controlled running shots are a really unique skill that ought to be considered. The only things I've come up with to try and encourage running shots are just comically bad ideas (basically, add angled sleepers to make higher shot misses more dangerous).

Does anybody here have any ideas on designs that ask players to keep the ball low, even with modern equipment?

There are very few golf holes that will convince the best Tour professionals to ever play a low, running approach, although Rory McElroy did PUTT from 80 yards on the sixth at The Old Course in the final round last year, while leading the event.  [I had to pinch myself.]


However -- the game is not about those guys.  There are millions of low-trajectory golfers, for whom the low, running shot is the only option.  Giving them a chance to get close with one, and making it a little tricky, is important, at least to me.


Also, consider that Jack Nicklaus -- who would never have considered the running approach in his legendary career -- needs that option now.

[Ken Moum]

I've been thinking about this for years. I feel like modern launch angles have overpowered the low, running shot strategies holes like the Biarritz or Redan. I just think controlled running shots are a really unique skill that ought to be considered. The only things I've come up with to try and encourage running shots are just comically bad ideas (basically, add angled sleepers to make higher shot misses more dangerous).

Does anybody here have any ideas on designs that ask players to keep the ball low, even with modern equipment?

There are very few golf holes that will convince the best Tour professionals to ever play a low, running approach, although Rory McElroy did PUTT from 80 yards on the sixth at The Old Course in the final round last year, while leading the event.  [I had to pinch myself.]


However -- the game is not about those guys.  There are millions of low-trajectory golfers, for whom the low, running shot is the only option.  Giving them a chance to get close with one, and making it a little tricky, is important, at least to me.


Also, consider that Jack Nicklaus -- who would never have considered the running approach in his legendary career -- needs that option now.

I'm that guy at age 75...probably was a long time ago.


I play at a course where everyone thinks aerial shots are required,  but it's just not true.  If you're a low-trajectory hitter.

[Matt Schoolfield]

I appreciate all these replies.

I've also thought about ways to "sculpt wind" with trees to make certain sections of the course much more risky to be in the air. Intentionally doing this, not just letting wind be windy, but to funnel that wind to various points to make certain shots more challenging.

Are there any prominent example of designers doing this to make lower-flight shots more advantageous?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I've been thinking about this for years. I feel like modern launch angles have overpowered the low, running shot strategies holes like the Biarritz or Redan. I just think controlled running shots are a really unique skill that ought to be considered. The only things I've come up with to try and encourage running shots are just comically bad ideas (basically, add angled sleepers to make higher shot misses more dangerous).

Does anybody here have any ideas on designs that ask players to keep the ball low, even with modern equipment?

There are very few golf holes that will convince the best Tour professionals to ever play a low, running approach, although Rory McElroy did PUTT from 80 yards on the sixth at The Old Course in the final round last year, while leading the event.  [I had to pinch myself.]


However -- the game is not about those guys.  There are millions of low-trajectory golfers, for whom the low, running shot is the only option.  Giving them a chance to get close with one, and making it a little tricky, is important, at least to me.


Also, consider that Jack Nicklaus -- who would never have considered the running approach in his legendary career -- needs that option now.

To be honest, I’m a little confused by those who state the ground game is from 100 yards in…. The ground game I talk about is for the lower swing speed, lower trajectory guys from 150 yards, those who cannot stop a ball on the green in firm conditions….


From 80 yards, they are more equalised with the better player for choice: Stopping a 58 degree wedge is more about technique than swing speed or trajectory.


In both cases, wild contour before the green is going to make you want to avoid it where possible.


Some contour - either milder or less numerous - before and in the green adds options and rewards different shots to be landed in various areas.


No contour or subtle contour makes using the ground in both cases more predictable and therefore always an option to counter wind and firmness.


Wild contour will result in more aerial choices and often just frustration for the low-swing speed player who has little option from 150 yards without playing the lottery.


Some contour will provide a bunch of interest and choice. That choice will often be to go aerial.


Little or subtle contour offers complete freedom to play any kind of shot though arguably with less interest (although very subtle slopes on firm ground from 150 yards can have a huge impact if used correctly).


In the context of this thread, maybe we can agree that contour does not promote / encourage the ground game. But it can certainly reward the ground game in the visualisation and execution of shots.

[Thomas Dai]

"Thats not good, its brilliant!" -
https://twitter.com/i/status/1308545756198969344
atb
PS - Thanks for Rob Williamson for posting this on Twitter.

[Stewart Abramson]

"Thats not good, its brilliant!" -
https://twitter.com/i/status/1308545756198969344
atb
PS - Thanks for Rob Williamson for posting this on Twitter.

I was at the first round of the LPGA event last Thursday at Upper Montclair. On the 16th hole, Laura Davies left her drive in the rough more than 125 yards out. She pulls out a mid iron and runs a low shot up the fairly steep slope to the elevated green leaving it close to the back pin. . The small gallery was amazed. It was much like the Gil Morgan shot in the video.I don't think another player in the event would have played it that way, but it was also a brilliant shot

[archie_struthers]

 


Mike has got it , maintenance meld must be firm and fast. Perhaps more greens canted from front to back would help also, but it brings on other issues


As to Zoysia, it's an awful playing surface for golf!

[Tom_Doak]

Well, there are the obvious ones--like less going on in the front of the green. like bunkering, hazards, sharp contouring, major false fronts--but I'd add one more.  There has been a fascination recently with Zoysia grass (for example, the course for the Nelson today had it).  My experience is that Zoysia is like Velcro--the ball sticks rather than rolls out, so needs to be avoided for the ground game to be encouraged.

Jim:


I know that was true for the old zoysias, but is it also true for the new ones, like at Fields Ranch?  I haven't played on those.  Austin Golf Club was the fastest zoysia surface I have seen.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Outside of the Open Championship, are there any courses on the PGA Tour that reward ground play?

Looking at the question in the opposite way, factors that force ground game play, the first two that came to mind were tall trees with high canopies, and wind.
Coupled with that is the absence or reduction of high-penalty ground hazards such as water or deep bunkers.

Incidentally the list of courses that experience noticeable wind, have prominent trees with high canopies that come into play, and have few water hazards or deep bunkers near the green, is pretty short. Maybe only Colonial and Southern Hills? Harbour Town at times?

[Jeff_Brauer]

........ Perhaps more greens canted from front to back would help also, but it brings on other issues

Archie,


When I have designed reverse slope greens, sort of like White Bear Yacht Club 12 (?) unfortunately, good players just seem to hit it higher with even more spin.  Of course, they don't want to learn a new shot for just one hole that does that.  But, it seems similar to how the Pros played 7 at Shinny, a Redan that was fast and firm at a US Open.


Also, someone mentioned removing backing mounds.  How would removing a safety backstop encourage players to hit a running shot?  It seems that an aerial shot would be a better option than rolling it up, on, and potentially way over a green.

[Tim Martin]

I know we have had the discussion before about the original intent of the biarritz green with Yale being a prime example. With the hole pinned on the back tier the play was to hit a lowish shot that found the front section and skipped through the swale hopefully reaching its intended target. Today players are flying it all the way to the hole with mid irons. That said there are no shortage of players that still need to try and skip it through as they can’t carry it all the way back. A brassie, cleek or driver would have been the club to hit a hundred years ago.

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