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Tom_Doak

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Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2023, 12:09:48 PM »
Ben.


I found an old 1938 brochure from RTJ. It had pictures of Durrand Eastman, Green Lakes, Garden City and Montclair.
What I see in the film feels similar to that dramatic and elaborate bunkering.
I really like his very early work.




Garden City Golf Club?  Or Garden City Country Club?  If the former, I would love to see any photo you found.


I agree with you the RTJ's early bunkering was more dramatic than what's commonly remembered now.  I believe his original work at Oakland Hills was very much in this style, and I remember for sure that at some point the club restored splashy, lacy-edged bunkers like what is shown here.  [I saw these in person, either in the 80s or early 90s, several years before Rees's work.]  But the frilly edges didn't last long under heavy play, and they were gone in a couple of years, probably just like the original ones.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2023, 12:58:37 PM »
Looking on Google Maps, the bunkers look to have been re-tamed since then...although there still look to be quite a few.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2023, 01:38:25 PM »
Looking on Google Maps, the bunkers look to have been re-tamed since then...although there still look to be quite a few.


The course was restored a few years ago by RTJ II. I think one of the goals was to make the course play less penal for the average and below player.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2023, 10:53:31 PM »
I agree with you the RTJ's early bunkering was more dramatic than what's commonly remembered now.  I believe his original work at Oakland Hills was very much in this style, and I remember for sure that at some point the club restored splashy, lacy-edged bunkers like what is shown here.  [I saw these in person, either in the 80s or early 90s, several years before Rees's work.]  But the frilly edges didn't last long under heavy play, and they were gone in a couple of years, probably just like the original ones.
How much of that should be a concern for modern architects who are installing frilly edge bunkers, especially in non-sandy soil? Should we expect that over the next 20-30 years a noticeable number of originally minimalist/naturalist courses will have kidney bean shaped bunkers?

Dean DiBerardino

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2023, 11:21:33 AM »
Looking on Google Maps, the bunkers look to have been re-tamed since then...although there still look to be quite a few.


The course was restored a few years ago by RTJ II. I think one of the goals was to make the course play less penal for the average and below player.

Richard Mandell collaborated with Bruce Charlton of RTJ II on the reno/resto project at the Championship Course at Tanglewood back in 2018. Click HERE for a story on golfcoursearchitecture.net where both Charlton & Mandell comment about the work done there.


Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2023, 11:37:37 AM »
Ben.


I found an old 1938 brochure from RTJ. It had pictures of Durrand Eastman, Green Lakes, Garden City and Montclair.
What I see in the film feels similar to that dramatic and elaborate bunkering.
I really like his very early work.


Ian,
Any chance you could post the Durand Eastman photo. I grew up playing that course 48 years ago for $.50 a round and $7 for the annual pass.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Ian Andrew

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Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2023, 11:37:45 AM »
Garden City Golf Club?  Or Garden City Country Club?  If the former, I would love to see any photo you found.
Garden City CC
« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 11:40:27 AM by Ian Andrew »
We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing.” — Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2023, 11:39:52 AM »
Any chance you could post the Durand Eastman photo. I grew up playing that course 48 years ago for $.50 a round and $7 for the annual pass.
Durand Eastman
We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing.” — Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

Ian Andrew

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Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2023, 12:00:31 PM »
Green Lakes GC
We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing.” — Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2023, 12:04:41 PM »
Those are very appealing Ian, thanks for posting!
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2023, 12:40:56 PM »
Any chance you could post the Durand Eastman photo. I grew up playing that course 48 years ago for $.50 a round and $7 for the annual pass.
Durand Eastman



Ian,
Thank you very much. This was the 4th hole. A short par three. Neat little wedge shot off a completely dirt tee when I was a kid. The county eliminated this hole and created a longer par 4. You tee off from the same tee and the hole continues down the fairway you can see in the background. Durand was originally a 10 hole front nine with 8 across the road. They added a crappy par three on the back nine when this hole was eliminated. I started playing at Durand when I was 12 in 1974 and the course even then had changed dramatically from when this photo was taken. Thanks again for posting! Brings back a lot of memories.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

MCirba

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Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2023, 12:58:46 PM »
Green Lakes GC



I played Green Lakes back in high school during a visit to Syracuse with a classmate and fellow golf-team member.   I really enjoyed it and the long views from the hilltop clubhouse were superb.


About three summers ago our family was camping nearby so I drove over to have a nostalgic visit, but so many evergreens had been planted in the interim that I could barely see the golf course.   Sad.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2023, 01:25:04 PM »
I've played Green Lakes...did so the weekend my cousin graduated from Syracuse in 2004. 


The land is rolling and really cool, and it was instructive to me at the time that I can't think of RTJ as "modern" every time, as some of his work came directly on the heels of the Golden Age, and had a very Thompson-esque feel to it.


I have since played a few of his originals that don't seem to be messed with too much, and they are fun...Portsmouth CC in NH is one that comes to mind.  Cornell has a few cool green complexes, but I know that's been tinkered with many times.


I've always thought that someday soon somebody will ask for a RTJ restoration to his early work (if it hasn't happened already), which will be fun.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2023, 03:58:47 PM »
Looking on Google Maps, the bunkers look to have been re-tamed since then...although there still look to be quite a few.


The course was restored a few years ago by RTJ II. I think one of the goals was to make the course play less penal for the average and below player.
I live about a mile from there.  Decent course but not world worthy.
People used to say "Too many sand bunkers" but about a third were recently removed.
Thank goodness!
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2023, 04:13:12 PM »
I've always thought that someday soon somebody will ask for a RTJ restoration to his early work (if it hasn't happened already), which will be fun.
I'm redoing the bunkers and surrounds at Midvale CC in Rochester.
It's his first course featuring small contoured greens, nice land and almost no mounds to speak of.
I was asked to keep a few of the "new" fairway bunkers, but most of the work is restorative.
The work will finish up this spring. We have 13 holes completed.
Major tree removal will happen, but will be done in house and over a long period of time.


We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing.” — Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2023, 04:33:59 PM »
I agree with you the RTJ's early bunkering was more dramatic than what's commonly remembered now.  I believe his original work at Oakland Hills was very much in this style, and I remember for sure that at some point the club restored splashy, lacy-edged bunkers like what is shown here.  [I saw these in person, either in the 80s or early 90s, several years before Rees's work.]  But the frilly edges didn't last long under heavy play, and they were gone in a couple of years, probably just like the original ones.
How much of that should be a concern for modern architects who are installing frilly edge bunkers, especially in non-sandy soil? Should we expect that over the next 20-30 years a noticeable number of originally minimalist/naturalist courses will have kidney bean shaped bunkers?


Ben:


You are confusing minimalism / naturalism with frilly edged bunkers.  I don't think RTJ was a minimalist or naturalist, although maybe, if you're comparing him to Tom Fazio instead of to me.


But to answer your question, absolutely, bunker edges like that are hard to maintain and tend to become lost over time.  It happens much faster in places with:


a) warm-season grasses that must be edged regularly,
b) 12-month growing seasons
c) heavier, more fertile soils which encourage growth and are more prone to erosion


It's not that a golf course superintendent CAN'T keep the look if he is putting in the effort and has the budget to do that, but it's certainly NOT effortless, because that look is not natural in the aforementioned settings.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2023, 05:11:54 PM »
I've always thought that someday soon somebody will ask for a RTJ restoration to his early work (if it hasn't happened already), which will be fun.
I'm redoing the bunkers and surrounds at Midvale CC in Rochester.
It's his first course featuring small contoured greens, nice land and almost no mounds to speak of.
I was asked to keep a few of the "new" fairway bunkers, but most of the work is restorative.
The work will finish up this spring. We have 13 holes completed.
Major tree removal will happen, but will be done in house and over a long period of time.


What do you think of 9 and 18? I believe the original version of the 9th played down the hill not up it.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2023, 07:38:54 PM »
The 6th is at the top, the 8th green on the left and the old 9th hole is on the bottom right


We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing.” — Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2023, 08:31:33 PM »
The 6th is at the top, the 8th green on the left and the old 9th hole is on the bottom right





Amazing that these photos exist. The creek in front of 8 must have come later. That’s interesting.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2023, 08:35:08 PM »
Ben.


I found an old 1938 brochure from RTJ. It had pictures of Durrand Eastman, Green Lakes, Garden City and Montclair.
What I see in the film feels similar to that dramatic and elaborate bunkering.
I really like his very early work.


Ian, can you share the pictures of Durand Eastman? I'm working on a project, would be a giant help.

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2023, 08:59:13 PM »
Ben.


I found an old 1938 brochure from RTJ. It had pictures of Durrand Eastman, Green Lakes, Garden City and Montclair.
What I see in the film feels similar to that dramatic and elaborate bunkering.
I really like his very early work.

Nevermind, you already did!

Ian, can you share the pictures of Durand Eastman? I'm working on a project, would be a giant help.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mystery Course Test New
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2023, 10:09:23 AM »
I agree with you the RTJ's early bunkering was more dramatic than what's commonly remembered now.  I believe his original work at Oakland Hills was very much in this style, and I remember for sure that at some point the club restored splashy, lacy-edged bunkers like what is shown here.  [I saw these in person, either in the 80s or early 90s, several years before Rees's work.]  But the frilly edges didn't last long under heavy play, and they were gone in a couple of years, probably just like the original ones.
How much of that should be a concern for modern architects who are installing frilly edge bunkers, especially in non-sandy soil? Should we expect that over the next 20-30 years a noticeable number of originally minimalist/naturalist courses will have kidney bean shaped bunkers?

You are confusing minimalism / naturalism with frilly edged bunkers.  I don't think RTJ was a minimalist or naturalist, although maybe, if you're comparing him to Tom Fazio instead of to me.
Tom,
I don't believe I said that frilly edge bunkers were an exclusive feature to minimalist / naturalist designs. But, and please correct me if I'm incorrect here, it would appear that frilly edge bunkers are a prolific feature found on courses constructed using minimalist / naturalist methods. Which can, at times, make it hard to distinguish the motivation behind the usage of the style, without knowing what the site looked like originally.


Regardless, much like how bunkers evolved and became simpler during the majority of the 1900's, it will be interesting to see the natural evolution of bunkering on modern courses. For example, I would not consider Mike Strantz to fall into the minimalist / naturalist style, but his bunkering style was much more towards the frilly range. Sadly it does appear at a place such as Tobacco Road, some of that original definition to the bunkering is being lost after 20 years. With so much border between grass and sand at a place like Tobacco Road, it's understandable that over times the demand on maintenance will allow those lines to become more simplified and the sand "shoreline" shortened.





« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 02:11:23 PM by Ben Hollerbach »

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