[Tom_Doak]

For that matter, I have seen many of the architecture buffs here posit that each design ought to start with a clean slate in the designer's mind.  As TD mentions, that doesn't happen often.  Whether your own mistakes where you would take a mulligan, or other golf holes you have seen, basically, that isn't truly possible.  And, no client would be comfortable with you throwing away all your past experience when designing, its why you get hired.  As a parallel, do you want your pilot to announce over the loudspeaker, "Fasten your seatbelts....I'm going to try something NEW!"

IMO, most established architects are afraid to try something new, for fear of failure, and losing the status they have.


That's one reason I like to have interns on site.  They are not afraid to ask [possibly] stupid questions, and possibly reveal some new idea. You just don't put them in charge!

[Mike_Young]

Besides, gradually over time, as builders got better, architects stopped approving grades, etc.  I think the pressure to keep fees low probably reduced field time in some cases, hiring good builders made that obsolete in others.  I have said this before, but you need to update your griping to things that happen now, not keep regurgitating old complaints, LOL.

Jeff,Happy New Year.  I'm not griping about anything but was just stating opinion.  As for "stopping checking grades on greens"...an architect needs to be confident of his grades in his designed pin areas.  I like to make sure.  BUT when you speak of good builders...well, in the early 90's many of the good builders started to work for some of the architects who had been around a while and they made more than a few of them look much better.  I'm convinced those builders just told the archie to "hold my beer" and watch. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,


Coincidentally, I just had a conversation with a few prominent builders regarding how the biz has changed over 50 years.  I don't doubt there were and are some cases where the gca was too busy or for some reason uninterested in a particular project, but again, I don't think uncaring professionals on either side is an issue.  As an industry, golf has fewer scoundrels and deadbeats per thousand than just about any biz out there.  At one point, you, I, and about 200 other architects were starry eyed kids with a dream.


Given how few golf holes most of us have had a chance to design, it doesn't make sense to me that a gca would not really care about the results, although I am sure we have all been in contractual situations where the owner limits site visits, nominally to save costs.  Occasionally, some gca's might be too busy at a particular time and make a value judgement that their new resort course needed more site visits than the muni they were designing for some small town in the boonies.  But the, for a rural town building a low cost muni, making a dozen site visits to tweak a rudimentary (by design brief) course isn't always a bad call.

[Ira Fishman]

Definitions are both important and elusive. To me, there is a distinction between creativity and innovation even if they are on the same spectrum. Creativity is taking whatever is in front of you—a blank page, canvas, music sheet (or empty space),city block, plot of land, digital screen, lathe or full on manufacturing plant, etc—and leaving after your intervention something worthwhile and worth appreciating. Of course, some do it better than others, and the ability to do so varies across disciplines. A great gca may learn the technical aspects of playing piano, but the odds of him or her being Ellington or Monk are pretty low.


Innovation is breaking paradigms and undoing assumptions. It is creative but in the sense of creating something new and new in a jaw dropping way. In my lifetime, that would encompass Toni Morrison, Steve Jobs, and Maya Lin.


But because gca requires function, combining creativity and innovation is a daunting task.

[Joe Hancock]

Several of the better shapers / associates / construction people I know are talented musicians, or their parents were.


I, however, have zero aptitude for music.

Well, shit. If only there was a loophole for being an accomplished listener of music…..

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


Coincidentally, I just had a conversation with a few prominent builders regarding how the biz has changed over 50 years.  I don't doubt there were and are some cases where the gca was too busy or for some reason uninterested in a particular project, but again, I don't think uncaring professionals on either side is an issue.  As an industry, golf has fewer scoundrels and deadbeats per thousand than just about any biz out there.  At one point, you, I, and about 200 other architects were starry eyed kids with a dream.


Given how few golf holes most of us have had a chance to design, it doesn't make sense to me that a gca would not really care about the results, although I am sure we have all been in contractual situations where the owner limits site visits, nominally to save costs.  Occasionally, some gca's might be too busy at a particular time and make a value judgement that their new resort course needed more site visits than the muni they were designing for some small town in the boonies.  But the, for a rural town building a low cost muni, making a dozen site visits to tweak a rudimentary (by design brief) course isn't always a bad call.

Jeff,
I'm not judging here.  I'm just stating observations. 

[Ian Andrew]

I'd love to hear from someone who came up with anything truly out of thin air, I don't know if it can be done. Models sat for davinci's paintings. Creativity is interesting choices and combinations.

Charlie,

The Koln Concert by Keith Jarrett may be the most interesting example of improvisation - based upon almost desperation - leading to something brilliant. I almost posted a question - many years back on GCA - based upon the idea of placing limits on what an architect could do, would this create great engagement because they had less at their disposal. This was before the reversible course happened. I wondered if the reversible course is a method to test this hypothesis.

[Cal Carlisle]

I'd love to hear from someone who came up with anything truly out of thin air, I don't know if it can be done. Models sat for davinci's paintings. Creativity is interesting choices and combinations.

Charlie,

The Koln Concert by Keith Jarrett may be the most interesting example of improvisation - based upon almost desperation - leading to something brilliant. I almost posted a question - many years back on GCA - based upon the idea of placing limits on what an architect could do, would this create great engagement because they had less at their disposal. This was before the reversible course happened. I wondered if the reversible course is a method to test this hypothesis.

Ian,

Don't constraints drive design? It could be budget, methods, time, technology, materials, and as you posite, organization.

[Ira Fishman]

I'd love to hear from someone who came up with anything truly out of thin air, I don't know if it can be done. Models sat for davinci's paintings. Creativity is interesting choices and combinations.

Charlie,

The Koln Concert by Keith Jarrett may be the most interesting example of improvisation - based upon almost desperation - leading to something brilliant. I almost posted a question - many years back on GCA - based upon the idea of placing limits on what an architect could do, would this create great engagement because they had less at their disposal. This was before the reversible course happened. I wondered if the reversible course is a method to test this hypothesis.

The Koln Concert is a perfect example of creativity and innovation combining to produce brilliance.

[Tom_Doak]

I'd love to hear from someone who came up with anything truly out of thin air, I don't know if it can be done. Models sat for davinci's paintings. Creativity is interesting choices and combinations.

Charlie,

The Koln Concert by Keith Jarrett may be the most interesting example of improvisation - based upon almost desperation - leading to something brilliant. I almost posted a question - many years back on GCA - based upon the idea of placing limits on what an architect could do, would this create great engagement because they had less at their disposal. This was before the reversible course happened. I wondered if the reversible course is a method to test this hypothesis.

I will have to look up the Koln Concert, though, as I said, I have no understanding of music.


As for the reversible course, I do think that mine produced more interesting results than the other attempts because I was a stickler for making it 100% reversible -- playing 18-1, building normal-sized greens, and being able to utilize all the same hole locations.  Or, one could say, more constraints.


But, of course, I also enlisted much better help!

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'd love to hear from someone who came up with anything truly out of thin air, I don't know if it can be done. Models sat for davinci's paintings. Creativity is interesting choices and combinations.

Charlie,

The Koln Concert by Keith Jarrett may be the most interesting example of improvisation - based upon almost desperation - leading to something brilliant. I almost posted a question - many years back on GCA - based upon the idea of placing limits on what an architect could do, would this create great engagement because they had less at their disposal. This was before the reversible course happened. I wondered if the reversible course is a method to test this hypothesis.

The 7th hole at Wolf Point had multiple iterations of the general hole layout before its construction. When it came to the construction of the green, I gave Jacob very little direction, the angle from where to best attack, a general feel, and maybe a few words on flowing lines. So generally I would say that green was made from thin air. I mention 7 green because Ian shared some very nice comments with me about that green in person after his visit.

My preferred method for greens is thin air, even though I've seen a ton of greens, I more remember the general sense of a place vs. having a catalog of holes - unless they are unworldly. Or more like playing jazz I see or am inspired by irregular lines in the ground during shaping and responding to them or exaggerating them to create more irregular shapes.

Regarding constraints, Shelly wrote Frankenstein after artificially creating a horror constraint. Tom has described the difficulty of routing Rock Creek vs. Sebonack - which had very different constraints.

Cheers

[Ian Andrew]

I mention 7 green because Ian shared some very nice comments with me about that green in person after his visit.

Thought it was one the best greens I had ever seen, a true original. I went back and looked at it multiple times, on multiple days, and liked it just as much every single time.

[Philippe Binette]

Designer gene... I doubt it exist...


I think what people call 'natural talent' is something that has been forged, most of the time unconsciously, from a young age. Then it's how your curiosity leads you and boost your interest


I know I visualize 3D and projects (landscape architecture and golf architecture) better than most people but that comes from:
- a passion from looking at the landscape when sitting at the back of the car
- a love from drawing plans and looking at maps. My father brought me some topo maps when I was 9-10 years old and I just loved looking at it and copy it. I was drawing golf courses for fun and included topo in my plans when I was about 13-14 years old...
- a passion for golf, golf courses and trying to understand how to play better despite my lack of length
- hours spent on the drafting table for youth to university...
- then on-site work helped improving my craft.


Best quote on that subject comes from great industrial designer Michel Dallaire:


He designed to Olympic torch for the 1976 Olympics in Montreal. His design for the torch (and most of his projects) was incredibly simple and efficient... (combining the relay baton (sport) with an olive oil burner (link with greece) and the red color of canada).


Montreal Mayor at the time didn't like it, thinking it was too simple and raw.. he met Dallaire and asked him: How long it took you to design the torch ? Dallaire, who was 35 at the time, answered: well pretty much 34 years !!!


Natural talent is more about a continuous, part unintentionnal, process developed through years of work !!!

[Ira Fishman]

Philippe,


That is a wonderful story about Dellaire.


I do not believe in strict genetic determinism, but I do think individuals bring with them different ways and abilities in interacting with the world. In your own example, something inside you triggered your passion for both design and golf. That led you to put in the time and work to learn the craft. My guess is that you became excellent not just because of the passion and work, but even if those were enough, you have something distinctive from most others as it relates to golf design.


From a young age, I loved U.S. History. I put in the work, and I was very good at it. Good enough that it was the
primary reason that I was admitted to an excellent University. I did well there and planned on going on to become a professional historian. But in my third year as an an undergrad, I was chosen for a highly selective seminar led by one of the all time great US Historians. It took me about three weeks to realize that of the twenty students, I probably was 18 in ability. It is not necessarily that the others were more intelligent than I (although many undoubtedly were) nor did they work harder and better, but rather that they had an ability to understand and think about history in ways that I could not.


There probably is no designer gene, but there may be some biological software (to steal from Penrose) that makes us distinctive in different fields of endeavor or ways of being human.


Ira

[Peter Bowman]

From what I’ve read so far, Jeff B brings up best what I’m going to describe regarding the creative-technical spectrum of design within the Implementor criterion of Kolbe assessments.


Often misrepresented as “personality”, the Kolbe Assessment, determines one’s Modus Operandi—your natural instincts in how you act/work to handle different tasks and situations.


It’s also of a teller how well do you work with teammates to get things done.  Kolbe helps determine the best seat on the bus for one’s strengths and interests so co-workers can complement each other in projects.

And because of this, I’ll never hire another employee or associate dentist without the candidate first taking a Kolbe.  I currently have a 22-person team that patients remark daily about the positive atmosphere they sense.


 Each Kolbe criterion is ranked on a scale of 1-10.  A high/low number does not equate to better/worse, rather a position on a spectrum used to describe behavior tendencies.


Again, Kolbe Implementor is what most have been discussing regarding the creative or technical types.


Low Implementor score = creative or imaginative, able to visualize the end result. The clay molder. (CB MacDonald).


High Implementor is technical, the engineer, able to follow systematic plans and build. The Lego builder. (Seth Raynor)


For reference, my Kole is 7-4-7-3


Here’s a copy-pasted summary of the 4 Kolbe criteria.


Fact FinderThis is your propensity to seek out information before acting, or before making a decision. Are you more likely to read a recipe, watch a video, and witness a demonstration before cooking a new dish? Or are you more likely to read the ingredients, see a picture and go from there?Follow ThruAre you a systems creator, or a person who bypasses the system to get the task done? Those who score high here are able to document processes and develop repeatable systems. Those who score low here adapt to find ways to accomplish the tasks through multitasking or other shortcutsQuickstartThis describes your propensity to do stuff without knowing the outcome. Typically a high quickstart person will be heard saying stuff like “I don’t know, let’s just try something” They are an experimenter. Those who score low here will want to stick with tried and true plans. Middle of the road will check things out before trying them.ImplementorWe’re all Implementors in a non-physical sense. But this Kolbe measurement measures how we work with physical space, do we work with our hands to create something physical? Those who score low here can see things, they can understand how physical objects work together. Those who score high here can create physical solutions to problems.

[Mike_Young]

As a grumpy old white guy with no filter I have to say that I do think there is a designer gene.
Can we agree that certain dogs are better retreivers than others.  And other dogs are great pointers etc. ,the Southern Redneck is always a better athlete than his northern counterpart.  Southern women are always better looking than Northern women so why do y'all think there can't be a Design gene?

[Tim Martin]

As a grumpy old white guy with no filter I have to say that I do think there is a designer gene.
Can we agree that certain dogs are better retreivers than others.  And other dogs are great pointers etc. ,the Southern Redneck is always a better athlete than his northern counterpart.  Southern women are always better looking than Northern women so why do y'all think there can't be a Design gene?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Incidentally, I might just point out that Erik’s opening quote from Tom D was a response to Jeff and my comments on another thread. Neither of us used the term “designer gene”. That was just Tom extrapolating our comments to one extreme.

[Peter Bowman]

As a grumpy old white guy with no filter I have to say that I do think there is a designer gene.
Can we agree that certain dogs are better retreivers than others.  And other dogs are great pointers etc. ,the Southern Redneck is always a better athlete than his northern counterpart.  Southern women are always better looking than Northern women so why do y'all think there can't be a Design gene?

You’re damn right on the southern women.  I picked up who might as well have been Miss West Virginia while I was in dental school.  At 40 she’s still the most gorgeous woman I can think of.  And her design tastes and skills are superb. 


While the design of her face is definitely genetic, it’s hard to say that her design skills are. It boils down to the fact is of great interest to her.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,


A perfect story to illustrate the differences in personality strengths and weaknesses, LOL.  To complicate it, some breeding by humans accentuated some of the traits in various working dogs over centuries, which happens more randomly in humans. 


I was told as a yute that my English-French side of the family contained some artists and landscapers, while my German ancestors were primarily civil engineers.  I have done enough family research to question that story, but it was too good not to tell over the years.....genetically I had some of both the artistic and engineering traits that turned out to be perfect for golf architecture, which just happened to match my interest in life.  There is a whole lot of randomness, sometimes dating back centuries, and in other cases current happenstance (i.e., my next door neighbors belonging to Medinah and introducing me to golf at a lovely place)  And, everyone in the golf biz I know has a similar backstory.


Peter,


I'm happy for you.  Your story reminds me of one person in the golf business whose wife had so much plastic surgery that he wondered if she qualified as a "Best New Renovation" in the annual Golf Digest rankings.

[Peter Bowman]

Mike,


A perfect story to illustrate the differences in personality strengths and weaknesses, LOL.  To complicate it, some breeding by humans accentuated some of the traits in various working dogs over centuries, which happens more randomly in humans. 


I was told as a yute that my English-French side of the family contained some artists and landscapers, while my German ancestors were primarily civil engineers.  I have done enough family research to question that story, but it was too good not to tell over the years.....genetically I had some of both the artistic and engineering traits that turned out to be perfect for golf architecture, which just happened to match my interest in life.  There is a whole lot of randomness, sometimes dating back centuries, and in other cases current happenstance (i.e., my next door neighbors belonging to Medinah and introducing me to golf at a lovely place)  And, everyone in the golf biz I know has a similar backstory.


Peter,


I'm happy for you.  Your story reminds me of one person in the golf business whose wife had so much plastic surgery that he wondered if she qualified as a "Best New Renovation" in the annual Golf Digest rankings.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!
I’m hoping she can one day be my Alice Dye

[Forrest Richardson]

I like Ian's summary: "One who surprises you..."

What doesn't stack up on Tom D's assessment that 'the more courses you've built, the better leg up one has...' is that none of the "great" classic era courses claimed to be great by the 'in the know' golf design fans were built by individuals who had much experience at all. The early designers were charting new territory, especially in the U.S.  Much of what they did was a result of absorbing, and then interpreting what they had absorbed.

BTW, there are few "surprises" being unleashed today. When we do see something truly unique, new and fresh...we should laud it. Mostly, we are seeing a "me-too" response with a lot of edge decoration and the usual complement of short par-4s and a mix of nice holes. Very few really great, new ideas. Lots of 'Chip and Joanna Gaines' stuff.

[Kalen Braley]

As a grumpy old white guy with no filter I have to say that I do think there is a designer gene.
Can we agree that certain dogs are better retreivers than others.  And other dogs are great pointers etc. ,the Southern Redneck is always a better athlete than his northern counterpart.  Southern women are always better looking than Northern women so why do y'all think there can't be a Design gene?

Mike,

100% agreed, although I wouldn't have put in quite those terms. 

In the age old debate of nurture vs nature, I would put that ratio to at least 80/20 to explain who we are, why we are, and what we do.  And I know people don't like that, it fucks with their false perception of "free will", but I could pound golf balls or shoot free throws until I was bone tired and never be close to being an accomplished player much less one of the best.

[Tom_Doak]

What doesn't stack up on Tom D's assessment that 'the more courses you've built, the better leg up one has...' is that none of the "great" classic era courses claimed to be great by the 'in the know' golf design fans were built by individuals who had much experience at all. The early designers were charting new territory, especially in the U.S.  Much of what they did was a result of absorbing, and then interpreting what they had absorbed.

Forrest:


I would attribute a good part of that to the fact that there were few great courses in existence at the time, so it was much easier to build something new and different.  Now all of those ideas have become accepted as classic, the window for doing something really original is much smaller, and there are many more "standards" by which new courses are judged.  [For example: par-3's playing in all four compass directions. /s]


Also those old courses have benefited from 100 years of maturity and possibly having their less acceptable features burnished away by long-forgotten greenkeepers.  George Crump never saw the last four holes of Pine Valley, for example, and Jack Neville didn't have the 8th or 9th greens at Pebble Beach in the right spot.


But you don't think, say, George Thomas would have gotten even better at his craft if he'd built courses into the 1930's?  Or do you think his career was better served by focusing on only a handful?  I would certainly agree that there is a balance there . . . you aren't going to learn and improve if you are so busy building courses that you have no time for them.

[Tom_Doak]

Also, I thought I'd point out that I've seen multiple presentations about Creativity and how that sort of personality is not rewarded at school or in corporations, and I do think that's true.  Beginner-level positions are designed for people who are going to help with menial tasks, and creative people get bored at that and lose interest if they don't have some creative license in their roles.


It only took me about three days of working at Long Cove to figure out that Mr. Dye didn't need much help "designing" things, but he needed a lot of help to build the course, and every bunker face or green contour was its own miniature design.  I probably would have flamed out quite quickly as a rake and shovel guy, but luckily we were in the midst of finishing greens at Long Cove, and I was really quick at using the transit and doing the math in my head for how much slope there was in the hole locations, which Mr. Dye appreciated.  It was a good part of the work to specialize in, because working on the hole locations and the transitions between them was an interesting problem to sort through.  It's still a big part of where I spend my time on site.

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