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Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2023, 08:34:36 AM »
Quote
This has all gone a bit Spinal Tap.
No, that doesn't happen until there's a Course #11.
That's the C+C course beside TD's, no?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2023, 08:35:54 AM »
Just bringing this back for the moment... The leadership at Pinehurst has yet not named the course, at least not publicly. In their announcement to the members and pretty much everything else I've seen they are referring to Tom's course as the tenth course at Pinehurst. I can't help but believe had anyone else been the named architect they'd have from the start named it Pinehurst #10. So either they are still really trying to figure out what's the best way to go with the name or they have something already planned. These people are really good at marketing and are attuned to all of the appropriate sensibilities, and I'm sure that they'll get it right.

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2023, 08:56:39 AM »
Tom - Can you please shed some light about the naming of the new course? From all I'm seeing so far, it's being identified as the 10th course at Pinehurst but not Pinehurst #10. I heard something about you and/or club management not wanting it to be called that so as to avoid confusing it with your course rating scale, that the C&C course if and when built can be #10 and yours would be #11.
David, can you think of a good reason they would not call it #10? It's in keeping with their tradition and accentuates the depth of the resort.
Merch/logo-wise, #2 has Putter Boy. #4 has its prominent orange numeral. #3 it's triangular flag. The Cradle it's "sleepy" putter boy.
I assume the club will make sure the next addition is memorable despite its numeric moniker.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2023, 09:08:06 AM »
10 is binary for 2.

 ;)
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #79 on: January 10, 2023, 09:50:25 AM »
Peter - The only thing I've heard is that that they didn't want there to be any confusion with the Doak scale. Calling it #10 when there's so few Doak 10's on the planet might be presumptuous. And more specifically, the only bit of detail I had around that was that Tom was being humble by raising this and instead suggested that the C&C course be called #10 while his was named Pinehurst #11. But you know how these ideas get started and bounced around - that's why I asked Tom directly here as he's always been so forthcoming with his responses on this forum. Maybe I shouldn't have and instead just let things play out as they will.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2023, 12:02:33 PM »
If you want casual evening dining, you have no shortage of places to go, either elsewhere at the resort (e.g. the brewery) or in the Village.


This is a benefit for Pinehurst that Bandon and Streamsong lack -- while the courses at Pinehurst may not be as good overall (although it may pass Streamsong there when Doak's new course opens, especially if you're considering the the quality non-resort options like MP/SP/PN), the ability to go to the village for additional dining options and other things makes it more attractive if you don't want to be stuck in one place the entire time. Having the town there is really nice.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2023, 02:08:59 PM »
"A variety of development opportunities will be evaluated with town officials, including additional golf, short course, clubhouse, guest cottages and other lodging."
I'm sure they will, I would think a complex of all sorts of additions will be in place by the end of this decade around #10. They would be missing out on the magnet if they don't.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2023, 03:15:01 PM »
Jeff - Yes, lots of possibilities for the property and we've heard a number of potential development ideas. I just wouldn't be calling it #10. The letter from the club's GM to the membership referred to the course as the 10th course, and the major press release from the club never even mentioned this being the tenth course let alone calling it #10.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 03:21:55 PM by David_Madison »

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2023, 05:48:09 PM »
Jeff - Yes, lots of possibilities for the property and we've heard a number of potential development ideas. I just wouldn't be calling it #10. The letter from the club's GM to the membership referred to the course as the 10th course, and the major press release from the club never even mentioned this being the tenth course let alone calling it #10.

The resort sorely needs upgraded accommodations for visitors. I'll bet (and hope) the property will offer more "communal" options, i.e., family/buddies cottages with a central kitchen/living room area.

As for the name? I hope they don't get cute with it.

It's #10. Nothing wrong with that. Again, in keeping with the tradition of the Club, it's perfect (pun intended).

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2023, 01:51:03 AM »
Congratulations Tom & Angela


Another reason to get back to Pinehurst again - one day (hopefully)! Also catching up to Mission Hills if include Cradle - 11 courses in total ...


Just curious - will be interested to understand Pinehurst course costings vs. other multiple resort golf locations

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2023, 11:54:17 AM »
Peter - The only thing I've heard is that that they didn't want there to be any confusion with the Doak scale. Calling it #10 when there's so few Doak 10's on the planet might be presumptuous.
For what it's worth, I never made this connection in the days since the announcement. It seems like it requires a couple of intellectual leaps and bounds in order to make it, and extrapolate something negative from it. While the Doak Scale is influential, I'm skeptical that guests or even the most beard-pulling of golf media would draw that line.


If anything, I wonder if going out of the way not to call it Pinehurst No. 10 would be the move that causes those outside our GCA-obsessed circle to raise an eyebrow. Pinehurst No. 10 has logic behind it from my perspective, and the fact that it's a brand-new course on a new complex of land that breaks the resort into the two-digit numbers only argues for that being the name. As for the merch drop, maybe a logo of Putterboy playing with a toy bulldozer...
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2023, 11:56:11 AM »
Bo Derek?
 :)

Atb

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2023, 12:09:12 PM »
Peter - The only thing I've heard is that that they didn't want there to be any confusion with the Doak scale. Calling it #10 when there's so few Doak 10's on the planet might be presumptuous.
For what it's worth, I never made this connection in the days since the announcement. It seems like it requires a couple of intellectual leaps and bounds in order to make it, and extrapolate something negative from it. While the Doak Scale is influential, I'm skeptical that guests or even the most beard-pulling of golf media would draw that line.


If anything, I wonder if going out of the way not to call it Pinehurst No. 10 would be the move that causes those outside our GCA-obsessed circle to raise an eyebrow. Pinehurst No. 10 has logic behind it from my perspective, and the fact that it's a brand-new course on a new complex of land that breaks the resort into the two-digit numbers only argues for that being the name. As for the merch drop, maybe a logo of Putterboy playing with a toy bulldozer...


I agree that very few will make a connection to the Doak scale and even fewer would take issue with calling it #10 even if they were aware of the Doak Scale


Regarding the merch and name they could go all Superbowl and call it Pinehurst and to attract a younger clientele update putterboy to be heftier like Dechambeau, wear cargo shorts, a backwards hat and untucked shirt ;D

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #88 on: January 12, 2023, 02:35:15 AM »
Well done Tom & Angela.

I think most archies would like the name Pinehurst X because its easy to remember and the number is satisfying...almost like a resolution. Other than 2, I can't remember the other course archies. I generally find the numbering system for so many courses to be unhelpful. That said, I am not sure names would be better. In either case, I admit that beyond the greenfee, many of the courses at Pinehurst never attracted partly because it just seems like a like a huge mish mash of courses. I never read enough positive stuff about most of the courses to bother figuring out all the numbers. But now that numbers are in play, it would be crazy to leave out the most satisfying and easy to remember number since 2.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #89 on: January 12, 2023, 09:38:54 AM »
Well done Tom & Angela.

I think most archies would like the name Pinehurst X because its easy to remember and the number is satisfying...almost like a resolution. Other than 2, I can't remember the other course archies. I generally find the numbering system for so many courses to be unhelpful. That said, I am not sure names would be better. In either case, I admit that beyond the greenfee, many of the courses at Pinehurst never attracted partly because it just seems like a like a huge mish mash of courses. I never read enough positive stuff about most of the courses to bother figuring out all the numbers. But now that numbers are in play, it would be crazy to leave out the most satisfying and easy to remember number since 2.

Ciao
I have only played 2 & 8. 

  • 1901 Donald Ross: Par 70, 6089 yards
  • 1907 Donald Ross: Par 72, 7588 yards
  • 1910 Donald Ross: Par 68, 5155 yards
  • 1919 Donald Ross, 2018 Hanse: Par 72, 7227 yards
  • 1961 Ellis Maples: Par 72, 6828 yards
  • 1979 George/Tom Fazio: Par 72, 7053 yards
  • 1986 Rees Jones: Par 72, 7216 yards
  • 1996 Tom Fazio: Par 72, 7099 yards
  • 1988 Jack Nicklaus: Par 72, 7118 yards
  • Doak To be continued
Of course the Cradle and Thistle Dhu putting course.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #90 on: January 13, 2023, 09:41:40 AM »
https://www.lyingfour.com/conversations-blog/2023/1/6/pinehursts-missed-opportunity


About 10,000 words too many in "Lying Four" (couldn't find author name)on why the author believes  Doak was a safe/"uninspired" choice.
Somehow unexplainably brings Trump into the less than logical article.

There are no Doak courses at Pinehurst.
There are several mediocre courses at Pinehurst-certainly can't afford another one(see Castle Course ar St. Andrews)
Or another of Pinehurst higher numbered  modern mostly avoided courses.

The article rightfully mentions Angela Moser. which should satisfy the author's want for a new name/creative ideas/hunger.
If Doak isn't hired you've lost the chance to see what Angela can do on this project.

Very hard to see how hiring the premier architect of his era and a fast emerging talent as his lead is an "uninspired choice" for a resort trying to put past poor choices in the rearview mirror and compete with upscale destination resorts with 3-5 outstanding courses.



Is it safe? Sure.
The same as I appreciate a jet landing safely every time it takes off.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #91 on: January 13, 2023, 09:56:43 AM »
Ugh.....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #92 on: January 13, 2023, 10:04:10 AM »

https://www.lyingfour.com/conversations-blog/2023/1/6/pinehursts-missed-opportunity


About 10,000 words too many in "Lying Four" (couldn't find author name)on why the author believes  Doak was a safe/"uninspired" choice.
Somehow unexplainably brings Trump into the less than logical article.

There are no Doak courses at Pinehurst.
There are several mediocre courses at Pinehurst-certainly can't afford another one(see Castle Course ar St. Andrews)
Or another of Pinehurst higher numbered  modern mostly avoided courses.

The article rightfully mentions Angela Moser. which should satisfy the author's want for a new name/creative ideas/hunger.
If Doak isn't hired you've lost the chance to see what Angela can do on this project.

Very hard to see how hiring the premier architect of his era and a fast emerging talent as his lead is an "uninspired choice" for a resort trying to put past poor choices in the rearview mirror and compete with upscale destination resorts with 3-5 outstanding courses.



Is it safe? Sure.
The same as I appreciate a jet landing safely every time it takes off.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #93 on: January 13, 2023, 10:06:39 AM »
Ugh.....


When that happens, just click modify, highlight the entire post and select 12 from the font size drop-down and click save.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #94 on: January 13, 2023, 01:20:22 PM »
Jeff,

III Its some guy from Mississippi named Will Bardwell

https://www.lyingfour.com/about-1

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2023, 09:39:21 AM »
Jeff,

III Its some guy from Mississippi named Will Bardwell

https://www.lyingfour.com/about-1


Pretty sure I follow him on twitter
Can't get to 13k Followers without the occasional clickbait.


Funny thing is to some degree, I share his sentiment, thinking of all the talented architects who toiled in the weeds for so long in the golf build depression following the previous boom.
But questioning Doak and Pinehurst is silly-especially with the Moser component thrown in.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2023, 11:03:30 AM »

Funny thing is to some degree, I share his sentiment, thinking of all the talented architects who toiled in the weeds for so long in the golf build depression following the previous boom.
But questioning Doak and Pinehurst is silly-especially with the Moser component thrown in.


The entire premise of the article rests on this sentence, which he saved for very late in his piece:


If claiming the mantle of American golf’s cradle means anything at all, though, it must mean an obligation to nurture the game by incubating new ideas and showing golfers things they’ve never seen before.



Really?  They seem to be selling tradition more than innovation, to me.


I suspect the truth is more that for a place like Pinehurst, I'm a radical.  And no one has any idea what we're going to build yet.  We could do something pretty wild, if the client indicates that's what they want.  So far, that's not the signal I'm getting.

Steve Sayre

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2023, 12:29:19 PM »
I love Pinehurst because it is so rooted in tradition and informed by its golf history.  I am all in on their marketing as the "Home of American Golf", and their success speaks to the wisdom of "tradition" as their brand position. It's authentic and appealing to a large swath of golf travelers.


Innovation is great for the shower heads and cocktail recipes at The Deuce.



Like most here, I think TD and Angela will crush it, and the popularity of the resort will ramp up in response.

hhuffines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2023, 05:11:26 PM »
Another life long resident extremely excited about this project! 


Is it too early to ask about the grasses being used for playing areas? Greens?


Is zoysia in consideration?


Thanks!


Hart

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2023, 07:54:24 PM »
Another life long resident extremely excited about this project! 

Is it too early to ask about the grasses being used for playing areas? Greens?

Is zoysia in consideration?


I don't even know what we are considering for grassing.  Pinehurst has professionals for those decisions.


Is there a good reason to deviate from what they've used everywhere else?

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