News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2023, 08:58:48 PM »
One thing I do have to say about this assignment, is that I can't believe how much attention my new clients generate with a press release.  I've heard from people I haven't heard from in 10 or 20 years!


I've also never received so many congratulations for not having done a damned thing yet.  I don't know why people think getting the job is an accomplishment -- I really didn't even compete for it, that I know of.  The good stuff is just getting started.  But it's nice to know there are a lot of people rooting for us.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2023, 09:05:57 PM »
I go to PH every August with 23 others guys and we treat the place as our own, that is we’re respectable outwards but Animal House inside the group. We stay at the Resort most years and play at least one resort course, often all three rounds but sometimes venture out to the best of the rest (aside from #2). Putterboy and The Cradle are now staples.  So, not stuffy from our POV…BUT…we never eat dinner at the resort, rather wearing shorts at Pinecrest, the new PH Brewery or one of the village locals.

Agree. I can't imagine staying at the resort without women involved. Would much prefer other places to stay. The atmosphere is fine in the Pinehurst clubhouse. You can make what you want from these trips. I don't worry about a vibe or whatever.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2023, 09:36:19 PM »
One thing I do have to say about this assignment, is that I can't believe how much attention my new clients generate with a press release.  I've heard from people I haven't heard from in 10 or 20 years!


I've also never received so many congratulations for not having done a damned thing yet.  I don't know why people think getting the job is an accomplishment -- I really didn't even compete for it, that I know of.  The good stuff is just getting started.  But it's nice to know there are a lot of people rooting for us.
Tom,Just realized I had not said congrats.  Congratulations.
My gut tells me that where there is some overlap, the Pinehurst customer may be different customer from what you have at Bandon or Sand Valley.  And that definitely is a positive for you.  Sort of like getting more clicks on Instagram... Would it be safe to assume they will want golf cars on the course?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2023, 09:59:37 PM »

My gut tells me that where there is some overlap, the Pinehurst customer may be different customer from what you have at Bandon or Sand Valley.  And that definitely is a positive for you.  Sort of like getting more clicks on Instagram... Would it be safe to assume they will want golf cars on the course?


Mike:


They are really wrestling with that; we discussed it again today. 


They kind of want to say no carts, but as advertised, it's a relatively hilly ground, and it's hotter down there than it is here.  And I think their members skew older than the average visitor to Bandon.  So I find it hard to imagine they can operate year-round without some provision for carts.  Maybe it will be more seasonal, like at Streamsong.  We have a couple of months to figure it out.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2023, 06:17:51 AM »
Tom,


  Congrats and welcome to the Pinehurst public relations juggernaut. They are a resort and area well along the arc of a major transition, all immensely positive (save for any unknown utility vandal). It's exciting to think what this little corner of the country can do for American golf.


  A question for you:


   What credit should a golf construction company receive for their contribution to a new to-be-built course?


  It seems to me that the quality of golf construction job matters significantly but is often rarely cited whatsoever. I imagine few are better than you to opine on the this, as well as the range of services they provide. I look forward to your reply.



The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2023, 06:37:45 AM »
Great news for golfers, the expansion makes a lot of sense considering the USGA's presence and announcing the resort as an anchor site for the US Open.  Also being able to play year round helps the economics. Synergies for staffing, bulk ordering supplies, equipment etc. further help make it a profitable venture on a spreadsheet I'm sure.  After No. 2 we shall see which course becomes the favored one for their second round now.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Brock Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2023, 06:59:06 AM »

I'm sure there are members that are excited about the new project.  I'm also sure that there are members that want it to be quieter and not have a 3-4 day Barstool event come in there, for example. 




I understand why it happens, but the point remains that the membership component makes Pinehurst unique as compared to the Dream Golf Resorts.  All you have to do to see that contrast is go into the clubhouse behind the 18th green on #2 and see the difference between the "members" area and the area for the general public.


Also, I bet the membership is going to be happy another course comes in and their dues don't go up by that much as the cost of the new course is pretty much subsidized by the resort guests.




You can't be happy about subsidized golf and dislike groups like Barstool coming to your club.


Amol, can you be more specific about what you see as the difference between the members area and the area for the general public? I walk through both areas nearly every day and I don't feel that the vibe is any different. In fact, many of the folks in the members area are guests of members (some even wearing shorts)  ;)


In years past, when my wife and I stayed at the resort, we didn't notice which side of the building was which, we were too busy having a good time. I would suspect that is the case for the majority of resort guests. It feels like you may have had a bad experience there to have such a low opinion of membership's affect on golf at Pinehurst?




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2023, 08:25:01 AM »

  A question for you:

   What credit should a golf construction company receive for their contribution to a new to-be-built course?

  It seems to me that the quality of golf construction job matters significantly but is often rarely cited whatsoever. I imagine few are better than you to opine on the this, as well as the range of services they provide. I look forward to your reply.


Steve:


Most architects rely on contractors a great deal -- as Mike Young says, sometimes the contractor is driving the bus.  If you don't have your own shapers to work with, you are relying on the contractor to provide good people.  Also, in my early years I saw a couple of contractors who were just downright shady.  If you're going to rely on a contractor, who you get is very important to the quality of the outcome.


My upbringing with Mr. Dye made me generally wary of contractors.  Pete felt it was important to put in as much time as necessary to get the product that he wanted on the ground, and a contractor, inherently, was looking to be more efficient than that, to maximize their profit.  [I never think about that at all; our motivation to go fast is so we can all get home to our families.]  Long Cove had a local earthmoving contractor, an irrigation contractor, and a dozen kids on the crew.  Bobby Weed was the oldest guy, running the job at 26.


Pete's focus was on getting good PEOPLE out on site to help him build the course.  That's not to say he never worked with contractors, but he didn't want to rely on contractors.  He didn't want to rely on anyone but himself.


One of the benefits of minimalism is that the less work you do, the less you need a general contractor to oversee it all.  On projects like High Pointe and Barnbougle and The Loop, the only contractor involved was an irrigation contractor . . . we staffed the rest of the project with associates, interns, and locals.  And they turned out great, though maybe not as "polished" as a big contractor would do it.


The first job I did with a real golf course contractor was Lost Dunes [which was my 8th or 9th course].  The client was more comfortable with a contractor that would provide a fixed price, and I was spread thin with two other jobs going, so I didn't fight it.  Landscapes Unlimited won the bid.  I told the client there might be a point where we needed to put our foot down with them, and sure enough, halfway through the project, they wanted to pull out their lead shaper who I'd really clicked with, and move him to another job; we had to tell them if Jerame went, they could go with him.  He stayed, they finished the job, and it turned out great.  I was told later by the construction foreman on the job that it was the cheapest 18-hole course they built that year [$2.3 million contract], and also the most profitable in terms of percentage.


We work with golf course contractors more often than not these days -- anytime the project is not on sand, or where there's a bunch of clearing and earthmoving involved.  Lost Dunes was the only time we did it without my own associates doing the shaping. 


Nowadays, my associates do a lot of consulting and restoration work on their own, and they usually have a contractor helping them -- LaBar and Allan MacCurrach, among others.  They provide everything but the shaping, they're very reliable, and they do quality finish work so that my associates don't have to spend so much time there.


Pinehurst has worked with LaBar on a couple of past projects, and they came on board on very short notice to build this course very quickly.  [It helps a great deal that my associates are well known to work fast, so the contractor isn't afraid we are going to cause them delays.]  Angela is also familiar with them, which is great because she'll have her hands full with her added responsibilities.  I hope they are as good as everyone says, and they make the job run smoothly; and if they do, I'll be the first to tell you.


Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2023, 09:19:11 AM »
Add me to the long list of congratulations. Great for Pinehurst and you will love LaBar. They are one of the best.
timliddy.com
twitter: timliddy
Instagram: timliddy1

Amol Yajnik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2023, 09:05:39 PM »

I'm sure there are members that are excited about the new project.  I'm also sure that there are members that want it to be quieter and not have a 3-4 day Barstool event come in there, for example. 




I understand why it happens, but the point remains that the membership component makes Pinehurst unique as compared to the Dream Golf Resorts.  All you have to do to see that contrast is go into the clubhouse behind the 18th green on #2 and see the difference between the "members" area and the area for the general public.


Also, I bet the membership is going to be happy another course comes in and their dues don't go up by that much as the cost of the new course is pretty much subsidized by the resort guests.




You can't be happy about subsidized golf and dislike groups like Barstool coming to your club.


Amol, can you be more specific about what you see as the difference between the members area and the area for the general public? I walk through both areas nearly every day and I don't feel that the vibe is any different. In fact, many of the folks in the members area are guests of members (some even wearing shorts)  ;)


In years past, when my wife and I stayed at the resort, we didn't notice which side of the building was which, we were too busy having a good time. I would suspect that is the case for the majority of resort guests. It feels like you may have had a bad experience there to have such a low opinion of membership's affect on golf at Pinehurst?


Brock,
You have spent much more time there than I have.  In my limited times there, seems like the resort side is always livelier, whereas the member side seems more subdued and older (probably goes hand in hand).  It's just a weird juxtaposition, in my opinion.  Others can see it a different way.

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2023, 10:34:20 PM »
Amol - I'm a PCC member. I love all of the activity from the resort guests. One of my favorite things to do is to join up with visitors and play #2 (especially) or #4 or #8 with them (far more often than not I can call in the morning of or the morning before and slot into a group with an opening). It's so much fun being part of their bucket list experience. Another pretty unique thing is sitting on the veranda overlooking the 18th green on #2 and watching players come up and finish out the hole. Sometimes the cheering can be heard all the way down to the 17th hole, and the folks on the member side are just as into it and just as loud as everyone in the "public" areas.

Are we on average a bit older than the resort's guests? Sure, but that's the nature of those on golf buddy trips, tournament participants, and others who tend to make up those who have traveled to Pinehurst vs a membership where many are retired and/or are otherwise are just enjoying the place on a routine basis. We're no older, less enthusiastic and energetic, or less tolerant of visitors than any other club membership. If anything, we're more open, welcoming, and happy to see you (and not just your credit cards) than most memberships.

I am so fortunate to be a PCC member. Walking along and watching the first ever Adaptive Open was one of the most impactful experiences I've ever had on a golf course. Forevermore changed my perspective when I miss a shot or am otherwise struggling on the course. Having the place overrun with kids and their families during the summer is one of the neatest things you'll ever see, literally hundreds of people swarming all over the putting green, Cradle, and practice area having the time of their lives. So what if we lose access to #2 and maybe a couple of others when there's the North South or other big event? I can always go over to one of the others and practice and play. I've been a member at other clubs and inevitably there were times that I couldn't get onto the one course that the club had. Here I still have lots of choices and almost the certainty that something will be available. And even the secondary courses are pretty solid and are always well maintained.

And yes, I do appreciate the resort-created "subsidized" golf. But I'm not really giving up anything for it and without the resort component there's no way we'd have all of the golf and other facilities. I play more rounds on #2 than on any other course -- this past April I played #2 six times. At any price what I have is still an amazing golf experience, and year by year the club experience is getting better and better as well. I appreciate your perspective about what you've experienced at Pinehurst, but I don't think that you really seeing or understanding all that we as members have here and are enjoying.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2023, 10:41:13 PM by David_Madison »

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2023, 05:04:36 AM »
(Forgot to bring it back to the title of the thread)

I'm totally excited about the new Doak course. At first it'll be devoted to the resort side of things. Maybe it takes off some of the pressure on primarily 4 and 8 but even if it doesn't but instead adds to the number of resort visitors as they add rooms, that's fine. As a practical matter, with the PR machine this place has and their ability to capitalize on these types of things, I can't imagine there not being a bunch more play assuming the economy holds up. I'll still get to play it every so often one way or another. And in time the 11th course and maybe some other golf will be added, perhaps the long-planned C&C course. And ownership will continue to pour a portion of their growing profits back into facilities that I'll get to enjoy. On a day-to-day basis, no matter how it all plays out, I'll still enjoy and appreciate having a wonderful collection of really good courses and I'll still be cheering on the guests as they come up to the 18th green and then play out on #2.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2023, 09:41:16 AM »
Interesting to read above the opinions that Pinehurst is "stuffy." I've never had that impression in part because my early experience with Pinehurst was as a junior golfer, playing in a couple of tournaments hosted their over the years. The fact that the resort is so supportive of junior golf - kids play for free at any course other than No. 2 - not to mention competitive golf in general, is a crucial and underrated part of what makes the resort a leader within the game, IMO, as David's posts above point out.


The prohibition on shorts in The Carolina's dining room at dinner is a bit of a throwback, but I personally wouldn't go so far as to call that "stuffy," especially when it's far from the only dinner option on property. If you want casual evening dining, you have no shortage of places to go, either elsewhere at the resort (e.g. the brewery) or in the Village.


Congrats Tom and Angela on an exciting commission and opportunity.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2023, 02:14:02 PM »
kids play for free at any course other than No. 2
[/size][/color]
[/size]Really?  I didn't know that [which I wouldn't since my kids don't really play].  [/color]
[/size]I hope No. 10 is not so successful that they want to make an exception for it.[/color]

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2023, 02:38:10 PM »
Tom - Can you please shed some light about the naming of the new course? From all I'm seeing so far, it's being identified as the 10th course at Pinehurst but not Pinehurst #10. I heard something about you and/or club management not wanting it to be called that so as to avoid confusing it with your course rating scale, that the C&C course if and when built can be #10 and yours would be #11.

BTW, I've never heard about kids playing for free on any of the courses other than the Cradle when accompanied by a paying adult. I recently completed a 100-hole hike for Kids on Course and learned a bunch about PCC's involvement in their program.
PCC participates in Kids on Course and kids in the program can play #'s 1, 3, and 5 for $5 and that through some donations bunch of that $5 is being taken care of.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2023, 04:16:40 PM by David_Madison »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2023, 03:29:46 PM »
I obviously am not a designer, but I wonder if it will be difficult to design something that blends in with the ethos of the resort yet stands out as its own thing. #8 is an example of that.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2023, 08:35:36 PM »
Tom - Can you please shed some light about the naming of the new course? From all I'm seeing so far, it's being identified as the 10th course at Pinehurst but not Pinehurst #10. I heard something about you and/or club management not wanting it to be called that so as to avoid confusing it with your course rating scale, that the C&C course if and when built can be #10 and yours would be #11.



David: I don't know what's going on there.  They did mention they aren't sure about naming it #10, but did not give a reason why.


A Doak eleven would be better than a Doak ten!




Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2023, 09:21:15 PM »
I don’t have my CG handy, but what are the two DS10s in close proximity? NGLA and Shinnecock? PV and Merion?
Probably pretty difficult to top PH2 and PH10–no pressure:-).

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2023, 09:21:32 PM »
Tom:  Indeed. Would love to hear your definition of what a Doak eleven was, and would be even more excited to see it on the ground down here!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2023, 03:07:05 AM »
Tom - Can you please shed some light about the naming of the new course? From all I'm seeing so far, it's being identified as the 10th course at Pinehurst but not Pinehurst #10. I heard something about you and/or club management not wanting it to be called that so as to avoid confusing it with your course rating scale, that the C&C course if and when built can be #10 and yours would be #11.





A Doak eleven would be better than a Doak ten!


Think you just named it.
Congrats to both you and Angela.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2023, 04:58:46 AM »
Tom:  Indeed. Would love to hear your definition of what a Doak eleven was, and would be even more excited to see it on the ground down here!

It's one better.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 06:47:39 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2023, 05:22:47 AM »
Tom:  Indeed. Would love to hear your definition of what a Doak eleven was, and would be even more excited to see it on the ground down here!

It's one better.

😎. I do recall thinking that if the old Pinehurst was a 10 then the renovated course must be higher because it was a vastly improved course.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2023, 06:50:19 AM »
This has all gone a bit Spinal Tap.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2023, 07:35:53 AM »
This has all gone a bit Spinal Tap.


you don't say...
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2023, 07:57:47 AM »
Quote
This has all gone a bit Spinal Tap.
No, that doesn't happen until there's a Course #11.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2023, 08:01:08 AM by Matthew Rose »
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back