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MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2023, 06:49:22 PM »
So I have to delay a return to the Highlands until Tom completes his work there, I have to delay visiting Wisconsin until Tom completes his work there, I have to delay NZ until Tom completes work there and now delay Pinehurst? Can you calm down Tom?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2023, 07:00:13 PM »
Congrats to PH, Tom and Angela. Marion Hollins would be incredibly proud of Angela!!!

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2023, 11:09:04 PM »
An article with a bit more information and photos:
Pinehurst Hits the Jackpot (Again) | The Fire Pit Collective


I wonder if they are going to fashion the Aberdeen properties as a premier resort within a resort.  The trend of tiered exclusivity seems to be a business model that is something I'm noticing more of in luxury travel world.  Pinehurst already has it within their membership model with #7/9 signature membership.


Also is there another design firm that identifies their lead associates like Tom does?  I feel like most press releases just list the name architect.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2023, 04:24:48 AM »

An article with a bit more information and photos:
Pinehurst Hits the Jackpot (Again) | The Fire Pit Collective


Joe--The pics in this article are fabulous.  The northern edge of the course is exactly where Rees Jones was clearing fairway for what would have been #9 (if it had been completed and so named) back in 2000...before 9/11 caused the Resort to slam on the breaks.  I know that area fairly well as the front door to our house is less than 400 yards north of what should be the edge of the Resort's property (along the boundary fence with CCNC).  Have seen the land from the CCNC side of the fence but never walked it (at least not yet) ;D .  Now listed on FESCUE!


Paul


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2023, 09:16:12 AM »
An article with a bit more information and photos:
Pinehurst Hits the Jackpot (Again) | The Fire Pit Collective


I wonder if they are going to fashion the Aberdeen properties as a premier resort within a resort.  The trend of tiered exclusivity seems to be a business model that is something I'm noticing more of in luxury travel world.  Pinehurst already has it within their membership model with #7/9 signature membership.


Also is there another design firm that identifies their lead associates like Tom does?  I feel like most press releases just list the name architect.


Joe,


I don’t know about press releases, but Tom has often recognized his associates in public, e.g., during his remarks at his annual Renaissance Cup. This past event at St. Patrick’s in Donegal, Ireland was a good example. Angela worked on that project (which is absolutely magnificent), while Eric Iverson was the lead….if I remember correctly.

Tim Weiman

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2023, 09:18:32 AM »

An article with a bit more information and photos:
Pinehurst Hits the Jackpot (Again) | The Fire Pit Collective


Joe--The pics in this article are fabulous.  The northern edge of the course is exactly where Rees Jones was clearing fairway for what would have been #9 (if it had been completed and so named) back in 2000...before 9/11 caused the Resort to slam on the breaks.  I know that area fairly well as the front door to our house is less than 400 yards north of what should be the edge of the Resort's property (along the boundary fence with CCNC).  Have seen the land from the CCNC side of the fence but never walked it (at least not yet) ;D .  Now listed on FESCUE!


Paul



Paul,


My first trip to Pinehurst years ago was with my Dad. I will have to make the next visit meeting up with you!


Hope you are well.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2023, 11:10:38 AM »
Congrats to PH, Tom and Angela. Marion Hollins would be incredibly proud of Angela!!!
Congrats to Angela as well, great to hear.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2023, 12:09:29 PM »
7/9 signature membership...I guess to each his/her own, but this seems like the opposite of how I picture "Pinehurst" golf-wise.  I suppose they probably get some priority or discounts on the other courses too.  This seems like living in St. Andrews and playing most of your golf at the Dukes course.


And I like #9 for what it is, although it's been 15 years+ since I've seen it.


I think of the clubhouse, the courses so close to town, Donald Ross, sandy pinestraw.  I think old not new.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Ted Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2023, 03:33:25 PM »
I first visited Pinehurst in the late 80's during a golf trip I planned with some friends.  After playing all around town that week and on a couple of subsequent trips, I determined that Pinehurst was actually pretty weak in terms of their lineup.  Other than No. 2 and Pine Needles and Midpines, they didn't really have another course worth going out of one's way to play.


Fast forward 35 years and now this area can boast:


Pinehurst No. 2
Pinehurst No. 4


Midpines
Pine Needles
Southern Pines (all 3 of those courses thoughtfully restored)


Dormie Club
Tobacco Road
Doak's new one


That's 8 pretty solid choices within one resort area!  Thank you 35 years of progress!


TS

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2023, 04:31:12 PM »

I think of the clubhouse, the courses so close to town, Donald Ross, sandy pinestraw.  I think old not new.



Me, too.  They've been selling all of that tradition very hard for the last 30 / 50 / 120 years.  But I think they feel like they're getting passed over by the younger generation who think Bandon and Streamsong and all of those places are so cool, and they need to do something a bit more 21st century to get back on top.


I have been trying to draw out of them a little more about what sort of product they really want, but they haven't had an easy time trying to define it.

Steve_Lovett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2023, 04:33:34 PM »
I first visited Pinehurst in the late 80's during a golf trip I planned with some friends.  After playing all around town that week and on a couple of subsequent trips, I determined that Pinehurst was actually pretty weak in terms of their lineup.  Other than No. 2 and Pine Needles and Midpines, they didn't really have another course worth going out of one's way to play.


Fast forward 35 years and now this area can boast:


Pinehurst No. 2
Pinehurst No. 4


Midpines
Pine Needles
Southern Pines (all 3 of those courses thoughtfully restored)


Dormie Club
Tobacco Road
Doak's new one


That's 8 pretty solid choices within one resort area!  Thank you 35 years of progress!


TS


Include North and South at Forest Creek (they're good) and it's a solid top ten.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2023, 07:05:04 PM »
My first thought about the new course would be how the look and feel of this course will differentiate itself from the other resort courses and the courses in the region.


Look forward to it.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Amol Yajnik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2023, 07:50:01 PM »

I think of the clubhouse, the courses so close to town, Donald Ross, sandy pinestraw.  I think old not new.



Me, too.  They've been selling all of that tradition very hard for the last 30 / 50 / 120 years.  But I think they feel like they're getting passed over by the younger generation who think Bandon and Streamsong and all of those places are so cool, and they need to do something a bit more 21st century to get back on top.


I have been trying to draw out of them a little more about what sort of product they really want, but they haven't had an easy time trying to define it.


The massive difference between Pinehurst and all of those other places is that PH has a membership component that would love for everything to stay the same and don't always want the younger crowd to come in.  But I bet the membership changes its tune if the addition of your course (and possibly another course down the road) makes it easier for the members to play the existing courses.


Also, for what it's worth, you're getting some people that build a trip to Southern Pines around all of the other courses that they can play and only spend one night at the Resort so they can play #2 on the day they check in and #4 on the day they check out (or vice versa).  All of the other courses are not a draw on their own, and I bet they want to change that.

Brock Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2023, 09:00:07 PM »
7/9 signature membership...I guess to each his/her own, but this seems like the opposite of how I picture "Pinehurst" golf-wise.  I suppose they probably get some priority or discounts on the other courses too.  This seems like living in St. Andrews and playing most of your golf at the Dukes course.


And I like #9 for what it is, although it's been 15 years+ since I've seen it.


I think of the clubhouse, the courses so close to town, Donald Ross, sandy pinestraw.  I think old not new.




7&9 Membership includes all 9 courses.

Brock Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2023, 09:18:02 PM »

The massive difference between Pinehurst and all of those other places is that PH has a membership component that would love for everything to stay the same and don't always want the younger crowd to come in.  But I bet the membership changes its tune if the addition of your course (and possibly another course down the road) makes it easier for the members to play the existing courses.



I don't think that is true. Part of the draw of Pinehurst is the buzz created by resort guests and their excitement in being in Pinehurst and the resort. I have yet to meet a member who joined thinking they'd have the place to themselves. Nearly every member of PCC is from somewhere else...why would they want everything to stay the same? While the addition of #10 will make it easier to get on #'s 4 & 8, the current membership is excited by the fact that another course is coming to Pinehurst and hoping that they will be able to play it when it opens.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2023, 10:19:29 PM »

The massive difference between Pinehurst and all of those other places is that PH has a membership component that would love for everything to stay the same and don't always want the younger crowd to come in.  But I bet the membership changes its tune if the addition of your course (and possibly another course down the road) makes it easier for the members to play the existing courses.



I don't think that is true. Part of the draw of Pinehurst is the buzz created by resort guests and their excitement in being in Pinehurst and the resort. I have yet to meet a member who joined thinking they'd have the place to themselves. Nearly every member of PCC is from somewhere else...why would they want everything to stay the same? While the addition of #10 will make it easier to get on #'s 4 & 8, the current membership is excited by the fact that another course is coming to Pinehurst and hoping that they will be able to play it when it opens.


My buddy who is a PCC member was texting me non stop yesterday about this - he's pumped for the project.
H.P.S.

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2023, 09:55:39 AM »
I think the view that Pinehurst isn't "cool" has almost nothing to do with the courses and everything to do with vibe/rules they have at the resort.  I was there with a group on a package in 2019 and it was an awesome experience, except they made us wear pants to dinner every night.  Some guys didn't bring any and were wearing rain pants at the table.  It felt very old money and stuffy. 


All of the top resorts are high quality and I have no opinion if one is better than the other, but Bandon is able to do high quality casual in a way I didn't get at Pinehurst.  I'd guess its long term legacy from being an escape from the Northeast, but if Pinehurst wants to compete with Bandon or millenial money, I don't think a Doak course will help them as much as a more casual setting.

Amol Yajnik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2023, 10:03:33 AM »

The massive difference between Pinehurst and all of those other places is that PH has a membership component that would love for everything to stay the same and don't always want the younger crowd to come in.  But I bet the membership changes its tune if the addition of your course (and possibly another course down the road) makes it easier for the members to play the existing courses.



I don't think that is true. Part of the draw of Pinehurst is the buzz created by resort guests and their excitement in being in Pinehurst and the resort. I have yet to meet a member who joined thinking they'd have the place to themselves. Nearly every member of PCC is from somewhere else...why would they want everything to stay the same? While the addition of #10 will make it easier to get on #'s 4 & 8, the current membership is excited by the fact that another course is coming to Pinehurst and hoping that they will be able to play it when it opens.


I'm sure there are members that are excited about the new project.  I'm also sure that there are members that want it to be quieter and not have a 3-4 day Barstool event come in there, for example. 


I understand why it happens, but the point remains that the membership component makes Pinehurst unique as compared to the Dream Golf Resorts.  All you have to do to see that contrast is go into the clubhouse behind the 18th green on #2 and see the difference between the "members" area and the area for the general public.


Also, I bet the membership is going to be happy another course comes in and their dues don't go up by that much as the cost of the new course is pretty much subsidized by the resort guests.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2023, 11:18:47 AM »
I'm currently in trouble with one client for saying a little more in my Christmas letter than he wanted me to say.  Did they not read up on how hard to control I am? /s


I consider you "good trouble"!


Cheers

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2023, 11:25:56 AM »
I think the view that Pinehurst isn't "cool" has almost nothing to do with the courses and everything to do with vibe/rules they have at the resort.  I was there with a group on a package in 2019 and it was an awesome experience, except they made us wear pants to dinner every night.  Some guys didn't bring any and were wearing rain pants at the table.  It felt very old money and stuffy. 


All of the top resorts are high quality and I have no opinion if one is better than the other, but Bandon is able to do high quality casual in a way I didn't get at Pinehurst.  I'd guess its long term legacy from being an escape from the Northeast, but if Pinehurst wants to compete with Bandon or millenial money, I don't think a Doak course will help them as much as a more casual setting.


Agree and disagree.


As others have noted, the depth of the quality of the golf at PH does not match Bandon or probably Streamsong. A Doak course on good land undoubtedly will make PH more attractive for hard core golfers.


But I agree that vibe for the audience matters. Bandon and Streamsong know their audiences. They do not even pretend to want to be couples let alone family places. Pinehurst has traditionally (word choice intentional) had a different audience and therefore brand. Changing both is not easy if that is what they plan on trying.


Of course, the place that I think may get it best is MP/PN. Shabby chic and pure golf.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2023, 12:50:54 PM »
In terms of elevation change and wooded areas, the site seems similar to Dormie.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2023, 02:16:38 PM »
I think the view that Pinehurst isn't "cool" has almost nothing to do with the courses and everything to do with vibe/rules they have at the resort.  I was there with a group on a package in 2019 and it was an awesome experience, except they made us wear pants to dinner every night.  Some guys didn't bring any and were wearing rain pants at the table.  It felt very old money and stuffy. 


All of the top resorts are high quality and I have no opinion if one is better than the other, but Bandon is able to do high quality casual in a way I didn't get at Pinehurst.  I'd guess its long term legacy from being an escape from the Northeast, but if Pinehurst wants to compete with Bandon or millenial money, I don't think a Doak course will help them as much as a more casual setting.


Agree and disagree.


As others have noted, the depth of the quality of the golf at PH does not match Bandon or probably Streamsong. A Doak course on good land undoubtedly will make PH more attractive for hard core golfers.


But I agree that vibe for the audience matters. Bandon and Streamsong know their audiences. They do not even pretend to want to be couples let alone family places. Pinehurst has traditionally (word choice intentional) had a different audience and therefore brand. Changing both is not easy if that is what they plan on trying.


Of course, the place that I think may get it best is MP/PN. Shabby chic and pure golf.


I think that's fair, Ira.  While PH #2 is my favorite course that I've played in the US, I agree that the sum of the courses at the resort does not equal Bandon, so a new course by Doak will likely close the gap.


I have no idea if they want to change or should change their vibe.  All I can say is it's definitely not as comfortable for a guys trip.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2023, 03:27:01 PM »
Joe,


PH2 is my second favorite US course, and we will go back again despite the cost. But I am not a fan of PH4 or PH8 so the Doak course will make the two night minimum to play No 2 tolerably expensive.


As to vibe, even as an older couple, Pinehurst can seem a bit stuffy to us which besides the golf is why MP/PN is our annual hangout. One of the things that we admire about Bandon in addition to the golf is that even though it might be the ultimate guys trip destination, my wife has always felt comfortable and welcome even though her bar tab is pretty modest. Other than the golf, she did not particularly care for Streamsong—did not feel authentic even as a guys trip destination.


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2023, 03:57:39 PM »

All of the top resorts are high quality and I have no opinion if one is better than the other, but Bandon is able to do high quality casual in a way I didn't get at Pinehurst.  I'd guess its long term legacy from being an escape from the Northeast, but if Pinehurst wants to compete with Bandon or millenial money, I don't think a Doak course will help them as much as a more casual setting.


It's possible that the new site will become the more casual setting.


To me, the difference between Barnbougle / Bandon / Sand Hills, and Pinehurst / Streamsong goes back to the ownership.  Solo clients tend to make just enough rules that they personally are comfortable.  Corporations believe they have to make sure that all of the other guests are comfortable.  They don't seem to understand that the same rules can be a turn-off to others.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pinehurst No 10 - New Tom Doak design
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2023, 08:43:13 PM »
I go to PH every August with 23 others guys and we treat the place as our own, that is we’re respectable outwards but Animal House inside the group. We stay at the Resort most years and play at least one resort course, often all three rounds but sometimes venture out to the best of the rest (aside from #2). Putterboy and The Cradle are now staples.  So, not stuffy from our POV…BUT…we never eat dinner at the resort, rather wearing shorts at Pinecrest, the new PH Brewery or one of the village locals. 

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