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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2022, 06:52:30 AM »
#TeamNewLook


I like the potential for the thick, grass pitch if you miss short, adjacent to the two new sand pits. The new pits aren't so small/steep that escape is frightening; daunting would be my adjective of choice.


Like Erik says, options exist. People miss short because of pride. Take more club or learn to hit a half-shot. This sort of hole should be the club professional's meal ticket for lessons on strategy.
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
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~Pinehurst (NY)
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~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
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~

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2022, 09:22:50 AM »
Like Erik says, options exist. People miss short because of pride. Take more club or learn to hit a half-shot. This sort of hole should be the club professional's meal ticket for lessons on strategy.
Yeah. It's not an island green. Employ a different strategy or hit a better golf shot.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Peter Flory

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2022, 10:46:47 AM »
I thought that the ghost tree was concreted in from the start.  Is that not true? 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2022, 10:56:05 AM »
I thought that the ghost tree was concreted in from the start.  Is that not true?


Here's the photo from Wade's link.  No concrete.



For comparison, here's a photo from about a year ago when I first thought it was starting to lean.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 11:00:13 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bruce Katona

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2022, 01:39:10 PM »
I, IMHO< much prefer the after than to the before:

1. To my eye, aesthetically the new hole appears to be more balanced. At 145 m (160 yards uphill), I'd be looking to take one more club than the distance indicates and attempt to hit a draw into the pin.  Having failed that, my miss to the right corner of the green allows for a pitch and a putt for par. What might have been a smidge better; would have been to raise the left front of the green up a bit more to partially obscure the front left quadrant of the green, much like the original.


2. I'm surprised the golf professional here didn't make a fortune selling very lofted sand wedges and teaching the membership how to get out of this very deep hazard.


3. Trees as sacred cows ultimately can be dealt with, especially in winter when "ice & snow damage" have "required" pruning & removal. Tom D eliminating ponds is a job well done.


4. Ike's tree @ ANGC & the tree guarding 18 green @ PBGC are two prime examples of sacred cows lost to Mother Nature.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2022, 02:44:57 PM »
Two local (SF) sacred cows that are NLE:  the Nakajima tree on the 18th at Olympic, and on the same course, "there is only one fairway bunker at Olympic" (the 6th hole...where everyone always told a guest that Ben Hogan said it wasn't in play..."just aim to the right") will no longer be applicable.  More fairway bunkers will be in play under the Hanse plan.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mike Schott

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2022, 09:16:42 PM »
The original bunker to me looks like a bad hazard. Players are tired at the end of a round and it's a huge hazard with no bail out option. For higher handicap players it makes for a very hard hole. An uphill par 3 with that bunker. I suppose you could lay up but that's a bad option and leaves a pressure filled second shot.
The hole is 145 meters in length (under 160 yards). That may even be the back tee yardage? It looks like you can bail slightly right or long left. It's not like it's an island green here.


As a higher handicap golfer, I don't think I'd enjoy this to finish my round. Too much pride to bail out off the tee. And you shouldn't have to no matter the handicap. If the yardage is 160 uphill, I'm probably pulling my trusty 5 hybrid. Trusty but not infallable. And the bunker shot will kill most high handicappers.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2022, 09:30:09 PM »
As a higher handicap golfer, I don't think I'd enjoy this to finish my round. Too much pride to bail out off the tee. And you shouldn't have to no matter the handicap. If the yardage is 160 uphill, I'm probably pulling my trusty 5 hybrid. Trusty but not infallable. And the bunker shot will kill most high handicappers.
It doesn't sound like you'd enjoy the hole anywhere in the round. "Too much pride to bail out" means it's the hole's fault? You can bail and get up and down for par. Consider yourself related to Billy Casper in 1959.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Mike Schott

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2023, 10:02:25 PM »
As a higher handicap golfer, I don't think I'd enjoy this to finish my round. Too much pride to bail out off the tee. And you shouldn't have to no matter the handicap. If the yardage is 160 uphill, I'm probably pulling my trusty 5 hybrid. Trusty but not infallable. And the bunker shot will kill most high handicappers.
It doesn't sound like you'd enjoy the hole anywhere in the round. "Too much pride to bail out" means it's the hole's fault? You can bail and get up and down for par. Consider yourself related to Billy Casper in 1959.


It depends on how long it is from senior tees. If it's about 125 yards I can deal with it. Also I do not like holes where a higher handicap player has to play away from the correct line on a par 3. That's not fair IMO.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2023, 11:28:34 PM »
It depends on how long it is from senior tees. If it's about 125 yards I can deal with it. Also I do not like holes where a higher handicap player has to play away from the correct line on a par 3. That's not fair IMO.
I mean, at some point, that's going to be awfully limiting.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Kyle Harris

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2023, 06:05:36 AM »
It depends on how long it is from senior tees. If it's about 125 yards I can deal with it. Also I do not like holes where a higher handicap player has to play away from the correct line on a par 3. That's not fair IMO.
I mean, at some point, that's going to be awfully limiting.


Since when is the "correct line" the same for all abilities levels in the first place? Is this not a fundamental element of so-called strategy?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2023, 08:08:18 AM »
Since when is the "correct line" the same for all abilities levels in the first place? Is this not a fundamental element of so-called strategy?
Agreed. Which relates to my earlier reference to Billy Casper in '59.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2023, 09:07:48 AM »
It depends on how long it is from senior tees. If it's about 125 yards I can deal with it. Also I do not like holes where a higher handicap player has to play away from the correct line on a par 3. That's not fair IMO.
I mean, at some point, that's going to be awfully limiting.


Since when is the "correct line" the same for all abilities levels in the first place? Is this not a fundamental element of so-called strategy?


Kyle


Nonsense. Using the Longleaf principle Mike should be able to play from a tee half way up the fairway so that he can hit the green just as easily as the flatbelly from the back tee.  ;D


Niall

Ian Andrew

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2023, 09:18:01 AM »
In a townhall meeting I was asked about whether the 5th at Park CC in Buffalo was unfair. The hole is 225 yards, creek all the way down the right that continued around the back. There was an oxbow (and bunker) back left of the green. I asked if the member had every played a laid-up. It was a very receptive fairway (due to the large roll left) and so was the green to a bump and run from in front. I was informed that you don't lay-up on a par three. My answer was there are no rules to how you play and the only goal is the lowest score, not the most impressive journey. Besides, I made three the last two times (this is true), just ask the super, what did you make the last two?

I'm not judging this hole because I have not played either version. To do so is unfair to the architect.

I will say, more of a general statement, I personally find "sacred cows" to be my favourite features.
What most call unfair is essentially the most interest riddle to solve or overcome.
Perseverance is as much a part of the game as opportunity.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2023, 09:21:51 AM by Ian Andrew »
We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing.” — Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2023, 12:57:30 PM »
Back when I was in LA School @ Rutgers, one of the Design Standards 101 edicts emphasized and taught was that in land planning & design , north on the plan sheet should be a the top of the page. This allows everyone to properly orient themselves to how the site fits in context to its surrounds, prevailing wind, sun/shad/shadow, etc.


Well, I did have one classmate who, just because & to be different, rotated north to the bottom, left, r right side of the drawing, just to be different.  Design academic credit was deducted for not holding to the north facing up edict , and credit gained for being "creative" in the design process.


What did I learn from this - looking at a design problem from all angles and rotating your view; can sometimes allow for a better design solution.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2023, 02:45:40 PM »
In a townhall meeting I was asked about whether the 5th at Park CC in Buffalo was unfair. The hole is 225 yards, creek all the way down the right that continued around the back. There was an oxbow (and bunker) back left of the green. I asked if the member had every played a laid-up. It was a very receptive fairway (due to the large roll left) and so was the green to a bump and run from in front. I was informed that you don't lay-up on a par three. My answer was there are no rules to how you play and the only goal is the lowest score, not the most impressive journey. Besides, I made three the last two times (this is true), just ask the super, what did you make the last two?

I'm not judging this hole because I have not played either version. To do so is unfair to the architect.

I will say, more of a general statement, I personally find "sacred cows" to be my favourite features.
What most call unfair is essentially the most interest riddle to solve or overcome.
Perseverance is as much a part of the game as opportunity.


Ian, That's a really good hole from 175. Playing it from 225 would be a bear if you're not a hooker  ;D
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2023, 10:57:06 AM »
In my years of consulting work the Sacred Cow tended to be either a pond, or a tree.


I did that work for more than 20 years before I was allowed to take a pond away from a course . . . now I've got one at Garden City and two at Bel Air under my belt.  The complaint is always that we will be making the course easier, and that may be so, but the pond was inappropriate to the design and never should have been introduced.


With trees, it's even more emotional, and it's harder to determine the point at which the tree affects the play of the hole too much, because it just keeps getting worse slowly over the years.  Maybe the worst one I've encountered was a smallish cherry tree that was on the hillside to the right of the 17th fairway at Crystal Downs . . . it made the hole crazy narrow, but many members believed it had always been there and should stay.


At the 100 year old MacKenzie designed municipal course where I work as a greenkeeper the 350 yard seventh hole has an ash tree growing out of a creek 50 yards short of the green. The tree is around 30 years old and will eventually grow to two or three times its current size.


The members love it. They maintain that "it has always been there" and see it as an integral part of the hole. I've been told that the hole would be "defenceless" without it - despite the presence of the creek which attracts an inordinate number of golf balls!


When I ask what their opinion will be in another 30 years time when the tree will be impossible to clear by most golfers their reaction is "I don't care - I'll be gone by then."


I know that it is an argument I don't have a hope of winning. I do however, have a chainsaw...


IMG_7927 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 11:06:44 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2023, 11:11:57 AM »
Simple! A couple of copper nails and blame a severe case of Hymenoscyphus fraxineus!
You’re welcome!
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2023, 11:23:37 AM »
Simple! A couple of copper nails and blame a severe case of Hymenoscyphus fraxineus!
You’re welcome!
F.


Ash Die Back would give me the perfect justification for felling the the tree. I'm sure I heard somewhere that the timber must be destroyed by burning within an hour of felling...  ;)

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2023, 01:53:21 PM »
In my years of consulting work the Sacred Cow tended to be either a pond, or a tree.


I did that work for more than 20 years before I was allowed to take a pond away from a course . . . now I've got one at Garden City and two at Bel Air under my belt.  The complaint is always that we will be making the course easier, and that may be so, but the pond was inappropriate to the design and never should have been introduced.


With trees, it's even more emotional, and it's harder to determine the point at which the tree affects the play of the hole too much, because it just keeps getting worse slowly over the years.  Maybe the worst one I've encountered was a smallish cherry tree that was on the hillside to the right of the 17th fairway at Crystal Downs . . . it made the hole crazy narrow, but many members believed it had always been there and should stay.


At the 100 year old MacKenzie designed municipal course where I work as a greenkeeper the 350 yard seventh hole has an ash tree growing out of a creek 50 yards short of the green. The tree is around 30 years old and will eventually grow to two or three times its current size.


The members love it. They maintain that "it has always been there" and see it as an integral part of the hole. I've been told that the hole would be "defenceless" without it - despite the presence of the creek which attracts an inordinate number of golf balls!


When I ask what their opinion will be in another 30 years time when the tree will be impossible to clear by most golfers their reaction is "I don't care - I'll be gone by then."


I know that it is an argument I don't have a hope of winning. I do however, have a chainsaw...


IMG_7927 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr


Duncan-There are no dissenters from the camp that have routinely played the golf course since before the tree was there? It surely looks like the creek is more than an adequate defense and that the tree couldn’t provide a better example of a “double penalty”.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2023, 02:15:55 PM »

Duncan-There are no dissenters from the camp that have routinely played the golf course since before the tree was there? It surely looks like the creek is more than an adequate defense and that the tree couldn’t provide a better example of a “double penalty”.

I've spoken with guys who've been playing the course for 40 years. All of them say the tree has always been there!

It clearly hasn't, but human memory is a strange thing.

Trees creep up on people. They don't notice them getting bigger, and they don't notice disappearing vistas.

The only way to convince many people that trees should be cut down is to cut them down. Invariably they then say that it is an improvement. Five years later they've forgotten there was ever a tree there at all!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 02:21:46 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Ira Fishman

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Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2023, 02:30:46 PM »
Duncan,


I have posted before that my home course has one of the worst opening holes ever.  Among its many flaws is a very large tree about 15 yards in front of the green that blocks the right side half of the green. To make matters worse, there is a green side bunker under the tree. People look at me like I am crazy when I say to get rid of the tree or at least the bunker.


Ira


PS When the course built an irrigation pond, it needed to move the 18th fairway closer to the 9th fairway. So of course they planted two safety trees on the left side of 9 just where it doglegs left at a creek. I generally get shrugs when I point out to the powers that be that in a couple of years, the effective width of the fairway will be 15 yards and that people will have to hit punch shots from the fairway over the creek. And it is a Par 5.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2023, 03:41:45 PM »
Duncan,


I have posted before that my home course has one of the worst opening holes ever.  Among its many flaws is a very large tree about 15 yards in front of the green that blocks the right side half of the green. To make matters worse, there is a green side bunker under the tree. People look at me like I am crazy when I say to get rid of the tree or at least the bunker.


Ira


PS When the course built an irrigation pond, it needed to move the 18th fairway closer to the 9th fairway. So of course they planted two safety trees on the left side of 9 just where it doglegs left at a creek. I generally get shrugs when I point out to the powers that be that in a couple of years, the effective width of the fairway will be 15 yards and that people will have to hit punch shots from the fairway over the creek. And it is a Par 5.


Ira-It begs the question of whether you should be entitled to a clear shot to the green after a solid drive from the middle of the fairway? If Ian Andrew sees this I wonder if he would render an opinion on the tree in the fairway on 14 at Agawam Hunt Club as I know he has been doing work there. Lots of good holes on this golf course but this one was a bit of a head scratcher for me.




Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2023, 03:51:19 PM »
Tim,


A good point. For brevity sake I left out the part that the fairway cants hard left to right, and there are a row of trees with low limbs in the left rough. A truly terrible hole. The green actually is very interesting but produces a fair percentage of three putts. It is not long at all but still a lot of doubles and triples to open the round.


Ira

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Slaying the Sacred Cow
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2023, 05:56:10 AM »
As a higher handicap golfer, I don't think I'd enjoy this to finish my round. Too much pride to bail out off the tee. And you shouldn't have to no matter the handicap. If the yardage is 160 uphill, I'm probably pulling my trusty 5 hybrid. Trusty but not infallable. And the bunker shot will kill most high handicappers.
It doesn't sound like you'd enjoy the hole anywhere in the round. "Too much pride to bail out" means it's the hole's fault? You can bail and get up and down for par. Consider yourself related to Billy Casper in 1959.


It depends on how long it is from senior tees. If it's about 125 yards I can deal with it. Also I do not like holes where a higher handicap player has to play away from the correct line on a par 3. That's not fair IMO.

Mike

I would have thought the correct line is highly individual. If we are going to measure the quality of a hole by the number of golfers who can play the correct (straight?) line to the green a lot of good holes will come out poorly. To my way of thinking a carry par 3 (4 or 5) with the option of a lesser carry or no carry is usually a good idea.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

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