[Darren_Kilfara]

On one of my recent flights home from Australia, I was trying to figure out whether I'd prefer (in golfing terms) being exiled to the Melbourne sand belt or the Surrey heathlands. They both struck me as being quite similar; Royal Melbourne - West is probably the pick of the bunch, but Surrey probably has more strength in depth, and the general feel of the courses was a lot similar than I'd expected. Anyway, one rumination led to another, and I thought, well, what if I widened the scope of inquiry a bit and investigated "golfing regions" on a global basis, and invited everyone into the previously popular "Survivor" format of voting off one participant at a time?

That conjecture has led me to the following list of contending "regions", with notable golf courses I can come up with off the top of my head in the appropriate regions listed in parentheses:

--Fife, Scotland (St. Andrews Old, St. Andrews New)
--East Lothian, Scotland (Muirfield, North Berwick)
--Ayrshire, Scotland (Turnberry, Troon)
--Surrey, England (Swinley Forest, Sunningdale)
--Kent, England (Royal St. George's, Rye)
--Wales (Royal Porthcawl, Pennard)
--South-Central Victoria, Australia (Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath)
--Japan (Hirono, Kasumigaseki)
--South Africa (Durban)
--Northern California, i.e. SF + Monterrey (Cypress Point, San Francisco GC)
--Southern California, i.e. LA + Palm Springs (Riviera, LACC)
--Oregon (Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes)
--Arizona (Desert Mountain, Forest Highlands)
--Nebraska (Sand Hills, Wild Horse)
--Northern Michigan (Crystal Downs, The Kingsley Club)
--Florida (Seminole, TPC Sawgrass)
--Georgia (Augusta National, Cuscowilla)
--South Carolina (Kiawah Island Ocean, Harbour Town)
--Greater New York City excl. Long Island (Winged Foot, etc.)
--Long Island (NGLA, Shinnecock, Friar's Head)
--Greater Philadelphia excl. New Jersey (Merion, etc.)
--New Jersey (Pine Valley, Garden City)
--Greater Boston incl. Rhode Island (Brookline, Wannamoissett)
--Greater Chicago (Chicago GC, etc.)

You'll have noted that I've intentionally gerrymandered some regions to make the game "fair", in some instances (e.g. an Arizona-sized region on the Eastern Seaboard could encompass every noteworthy course from Brookline to Augusta to Chicago GC). Rather than beginning the game now, I'd like to open the parameters of debate on the above subjects...are there regions I'm missing? (Any as-yet-unlisted US state, British county or foreign country?) Is some of my gerrymandering unfair on a particular region, in your opinion? Once we have a consensus on the list itself, round one will be a general cull of those regions which are deemed to be unworthy of inclusion in the game, in which you'll be able to nominate up to 10 regions for exclusion from the round two (mainly so that we're not still playing the game next summer). After that, we'll have a straight one-at-a-time knockout procedure. Does that sound good to everyone? Any suggestions would be welcome before we begin...

Cheers,
Darren

[Brian_Gracely]

How about adding "North Carolina Sand Hills - (Pinehurst, Pine Needles, Tobacco Road)??

[Steve Lapper]

Northern Ireland:

Royal County Down
Royal Portrush
Portmarnock
Portstewart

Southwestern Ireland:

Ballybunion
Lahinch
Doonbeg


Just an add.

[JLahrman]

Just go with the Columbus region:  Muirfield, Scioto, The Golf Club, Double Eagle, throw in Brookside, Cooks Creek, and a couple of others.

[THuckaby2]

Clarify the rules straight from the start - do weather and other quality of life issues count, or are we to assume magical constant great weather, unlimited money, etc.?  That is, is this about the regions or just the golf courses?

TH

[LKoonce]

Exile me to the eastern Highlands any day: Dornoch, Brora, the Carnegie Links (and I assume that like the real Survivor, someone else will be footing the bill?).

[Scott_Burroughs]

Michigan?

Northern Michigan is on the original list.


Darren,

You exclude Long Island from "Greater New York City" and have New Jersey as a separate entity, so what you really mean is "Westchester County".  Greater NYC would really include western Long Island (Garden City, Bethpage, Piping Rock, The Creek), and northern NJ (Baltusrol, Somerset Hills, Ridgewood, Plainfield), in addition to Westchester County (WF, Quaker Ridge, Fenway).

[A_Clay_Man]

Huck is correct. There needs to be some criterior like 'all golf all the time'. If we throw in a twist perhaps Monterey won't win hands down.

[THuckaby2]

We are simpatico on this one, Adam.  We do need to keep it fair for the rest of the world this time.  

TH

[JBStansell]

Our Canadian friends (and their favorite architect, Stanley Thompson) are absent.  What about Banff and Jasper?  What about Capilano?  What about Highland Links?  

[THuckaby2]

So, as I understand it, terciary factors like quality of weather, good bars, hotness of femmes/scenery, quality of non-golf sporting environment (ie, Chicago gets points for Wrigley) etc., don't count, correct?  This is just about golf and nothing else?  I have a question -- why?

It's up to Darren to decide if all that counts, shivas.  I'm just ASKING because this was quite controversial the last time we did this... Hey, I'm with you, we ought to stick to real life to make this meaningful... but I don't make the rules!

TH

[Craig Disher]

Replace Kent with SE England (btw, Rye is in E Sussex). Deal, Princes, Littlestone, and Chart Hills are in Kent but from a central point, The Addington, Walton Heath, Royal Ashdown Forest, Royal Blackheath and its incredible library/museum as well as all the courses in Kent are about the same distance away - about an hour's drive.

[JohnV]

Monte-r-ey is in Alto California, Monte-r-r-ey is eeen Mex-hico, Seņor, near the baja California.

Give Darren a break, he was probably reading his GCA T-Shirt from George Pazin.

I agree an Ohio/West Penn region would be pretty good, could even include W-VA so that Pete Dye Club could get in there.

[Brian_Gracely]

Regionally Ohio/W.Pa/WVa are close, but asking those folks to cross boundries and play together is not going to work out very well.  Ever been to a Steelers vs. Browns game?...not alot of love there.

[Mike Hendren]

Not sure about Survivor, but I typically take one look at the line-up of ladies for The Bachelor and pick the winner.  "Just one look, is all it took."  I never watch the show thereafter, and have my teenage daughter report the winner.  I'm seldom wrong.  

Same thing here:  Finals will pit Monterey and Long Island.  Book it!  It's a push absent the weather factor.  Then again, there's always the railroad factor, as evidenced by the early departure of Donald Ross from the Dead Architect's Survivor Series and Paul Turner's manipulation of the vote to insure his man Colt is the winner:  

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Not sure about Survivor, but I typically take one look at the line-up of ladies for The Bachelor and pick the winner.  "Just one look, is all it took."  I never watch the show thereafter, and have my teenage daughter report the winner.  I'm seldom wrong

So do tell, did you pick Estella for Bachelor Bob?

TH

[George Pazin]

Monte-r-ey is in Alto California, Monte-r-r-ey is eeen Mex-hico, Seņor, near the baja California.

Give Darren a break, he was probably reading his GCA T-Shirt from George Pazin.

 

Weather be damned, Monterey comes with all those west coast nut cases as well!

'Dem folks down under seem to have a pretty good grip on both golf and life - they get my vote.

[THuckaby2]

George:  of course that ought to factor in also.  

And Aussies are just such great people, well... that would have to weight heavily in one's vote.

That is, IF this is about more than just golf courses.  

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

Remember the old "three point must" system in boxing.  Same theory holds for The Bachelor.  One point each for face, figure and endowment with a one point deduction for, shall we say "witchiness."  Simple.

Mike

[Darren_Kilfara]

I can't believe I forgot about Ireland and Hawaii - obviously those will be factored into the final lists, as will an Ohio subsection of some sort. (And perhaps a Scottish highlands one, although I'm not convinced that Dornoch, Nairn, Brora and Skibo Castle are enough to give that selection any staying power whatsoever...)

Anyone think I should split up Northern California into "Monterey Peninsula" and "Greater San Francisco" regions, and if so, to which belongs Pasatiempo?

As I recall, the last time an exercise along these lines was attempted, a variety of factors were allowable in one's calculations. In this exercise, my preference is to ground the discussion exclusively in terms of golf course architecture. For example, weather should only be factored in when discussing the golf. Not that there's anything wrong with talking about other factors - I'm just aiming to do something a bit different this time.

As for the poster who suggested that we should fast-forward to the inevitable Monter(r)ey-Long Island final: for one, I'm not at all convinced that those will be the two finalists, but for two, to be honest I'm rather more interested as to who finishes eighth, ninth and tenth (and why) than who finishes first and second. Those sorts of calculations are far less obvious, to me, than the ones at the top, and therefore should be rather more interesting. (I thought about doing this like a college football poll or a baseball MVP vote instead of using the "Survivor" format...maybe that would be more appropriate? It would almost certainly produce different results...)

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

I buy that.  

So did you pick Estella?

Watching the show - and I only saw the very first and last two episodes, thank God - she seemed to be the logical choice.  But I would not have picked her from the very start...

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

I don't bother with the names.  I did pick the "winner."

Mike

[THuckaby2]

DK:

OK, it's just golf.

And Monterey can stand on its own - go ahead and give greater SF area Pasatiempo even.

I'm still betting that Mike H. is correct.  

But you're right, 8-9-10 etc. will also be very interesting.  

TH

[ForkaB]

Darren

I think you need to do a bit more thinking in what one calls a "region."  It's hardly fair to compare Fife with Japan or Canada, or to lump LA and Palm Springs together or even TPC-Sawgrass and Seminole.

Pick some sort of definition which combines a place and some criterion such as "golf within a 1-2 hour driving radius."  If you do that you are both more honest to your concept and more likely to hone down the contenders to a reasonable number

And, rather than votes, how about an online auction!  WE might even get JakaB back on the site!

PS--you forgot the northwest of England (Hoylake, Birkdale, Lytham, Formby, Hillside, etc.) and Gloucestershire (Painswick) and I'm sure some others.

[Bob_Huntley]

Darren has raised an interesting question but has omitted some criteria. We all know about the wonderful golf in the areas mentioned, but can you play year round?

When I left Africa some forty years ago, I could play every day of the year with the exception of a few days when monsoon-like rains and thunder storms made it unsafe. Upon deciding to live in America I studied the golfing nirvanas and decided upon California, the weather being a huge factor. I know I can play on the Monterey Peninsula at least one day a week, year round. I can do the same in Melbourne and Hawaii. I don't  think I would want to on Long Island, Scotland, England and the host of other sites mentioned.

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