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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #250 on: February 15, 2023, 12:02:47 PM »
Not sure about that, Sven.   The September 13th report about the tournament being postponed due to rain seems to say, paraphrasing, but no worries...the new course will be completed soon.   Begs the question of where the tournament would have been staged, no?


Just a guess but suspect it was just an expansion of the original with some new greens but that's speculative of course.


As long as you don't think that whatever was to be "completed soon" was a whole new course, we're close to being on the same page.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #251 on: February 15, 2023, 12:10:04 PM »
Not sure about that, Sven.   The September 13th report about the tournament being postponed due to rain seems to say, paraphrasing, but no worries...the new course will be completed soon.   Begs the question of where the tournament would have been staged, no?


Just a guess but suspect it was just an expansion of the original with some new greens but that's speculative of course.


As long as you don't think that whatever was to be "completed soon" was a whole new course, we're close to being on the same page.


Agreed.  A whole new course on that acreage would be difficult to fathom.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #252 on: February 15, 2023, 03:38:54 PM »
Courtesy of Joe Bausch and the Bausch archives, this May 10, 1908 snippet from The North American provides additional information, which is not dispositive, however.   The full article can be found at http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/archives/1908NorthAmerican/pages/page_2.html?







« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 03:43:11 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #253 on: February 16, 2023, 03:51:55 PM »
I was able to get a look at Frederick Waterman's 2013 book, "The History of Newport Country Club" and here is the section where Barker is referred to;


"In 1897, at a cost of $4,000, Davis added nine holes, which made extensive use of the low-lying land east of the clubhouse.   Regrettably, this section of the property was in a topographical basin where rainwater from the surrounding hills gathered, often rendering the new holes too wet to play as had happened to the little used polo field nearby."


"Interest in golf declined during the next few years.   Davis left NCC in 1899 and by 1902, "play had fallen off due to interest in tennis and yachting".  That spring, the club decided that nine holes would be "sufficient to accommodate play."  As a result, only the original nine were cared for."


"A 1913 scorecard shows a length of 5,541 yards, with Davis's opening hole, named "Plateau" as the 10th hole.   The wetness of the newer "Lower Course" holes persisted, and Yorkshireman H. H. Barker, the golf professional at Garden City Golf Club and a golf-course designer was brought in to consult, as did Peter Lees, who was regarded as the finest greenkeeper in England, and had been brought to America by Charles Blair Macdonald to deal with the bogs on the proposed Lido course on Long Island."



By 1916, Seth Raynor was brought in and although it is recorded that he submitted plans that were later deemed to be "too congested", ended up buying additional land that Tillinghast had recommended, and eventually went with Tilly's design that opened in 1923.   For what it's worth, the club did ask that some of Raynor's suggested holes be implemented by TIllinghast.


Objectively, it doesn't look as though Barker's suggestions, if he made any specific recommendations during his "consult", were acted upon based on any particular club records.  However, it's possible that Barker was part of re-opening the second nine holes and may have provided insight into how they might be better maintained, as the decision to go back to 18 holes and make some $5,000 in "improvements" seems to have been made around the same time as Barker's consult in 1909, as this September 6th, 1909 New York Tribune article mentions;


« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 04:22:39 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #254 on: February 17, 2023, 09:11:10 AM »
Last night I ordered a copy of the Springhaven history book by Bob Labbance.   While waiting for it to arrive, here's what I know about the  evolution of Springhaven.   One second hand source mentioned that Barker "added 50 bunkers" there in 1910 and later after publication (and Barker) Joe Bausch found information that Alex Findlay and member J.H. Lineaweaver added bunkers, yardage, and changed some holes around 1914.   In either case, the first photo below from the Dallin Aerial Collection at the Hagley Museum in DE shows the state of Springhaven in 1924.   Around that time William Flynn was brought in by the club and after first giving them a re-routing plan (that was rejected) and then suggesting they move to better land north of there (which they rejected), he eventually convinced them to rebunker their property in a more strategic (and certainly less artificial) manner, which is seen in the second photo from about the same angle in 1928.  He also rerouted a few holes.


This comparison is not made to disparage Barker but only to show some of the evolution of construction and architectural techniques as American golf evolved.   I very much doubt Barker oversaw construction but certainly Flynn did.   Findlay also often did his own construction through his firm but with one source claiming Findlay was a member of Springhaven, I'm not sure if he did or not.


Springhaven 1924




Springhaven 1928

« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 09:26:17 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #255 on: February 17, 2023, 12:41:33 PM »
Earlier, there was some discussion about Dr. Harban and his role/responsibility at Columbia and friendship with Travis.   This June 14, 1918 (DC) Evening Star article, and the snippet from April 1916 in the same newspaper provide some insight.






"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #256 on: February 23, 2023, 12:05:34 PM »


The booklet then goes on to describe Barker's career including his various visits back to UK, moves to different clubs and other design work that he did. I haven't got time at the moment to go through that but will try and do so later. I'll also see if I can find Robert Calton's email address for anyone interested in contacting him for a copy of his booklet.


Niall


Niall,


If you could message me Robert Calton's email address I'd be much obliged.   Thanks!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #257 on: February 23, 2023, 12:16:57 PM »
Niall C,


You mentioned earlier that Barker was "an educated guy".   Do you have any insight on where he did his formal education, or through what grades?   I've been trying to locate a copy of Robert Calton's booklet but haven't been able to date.   I ask because John Challenger earlier mentioned that Calton only had a "grammar school" education.


Thanks for anything further.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #258 on: February 23, 2023, 01:35:54 PM »
Niall C,


You mentioned earlier that Barker was "an educated guy".   Do you have any insight on where he did his formal education, or through what grades?   I've been trying to locate a copy of Robert Calton's booklet but haven't been able to date.   I ask because John Challenger earlier mentioned that Calton only had a "grammar school" education.


Thanks for anything further.


From the April 6, 1913 Birmingham Age-Herald -




In addition, he owned a business in the UK prior to coming over to the U.S.  He turned it over to his father who could no longer continue with his current job.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #259 on: February 23, 2023, 02:20:40 PM »
Niall C,


You mentioned earlier that Barker was "an educated guy".   Do you have any insight on where he did his formal education, or through what grades?   I've been trying to locate a copy of Robert Calton's booklet but haven't been able to date.   I ask because John Challenger earlier mentioned that Calton only had a "grammar school" education.


Thanks for anything further.


From the April 6, 1913 Birmingham Age-Herald -




In addition, he owned a business in the UK prior to coming over to the U.S.  He turned it over to his father who could no longer continue with his current job.




Thanks, Sven...that's awesome.   Much appreciated!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #260 on: February 23, 2023, 06:35:39 PM »
Sven,


Think of the "class" implications of that in 1907 England when our young Mr. Barker eschewed the Bar and a potential privileged life of a barrister and timber farm owner for a working man's life on the links in America.

Can't imagine the dinner table discussions with his family but I'm really starting to like this guy.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 07:14:35 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #261 on: February 23, 2023, 07:40:22 PM »
Think of the "class" implications of that in 1907 England when our young Mr. Barker eschewed the Bar and a potential privileged life of a barrister and timber farm owner for a working man's life on the links in America.


I couldn’t begin to imagine anything like that.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #262 on: February 24, 2023, 08:21:08 AM »
I just looked Barker up on UK Ancestry, but couldn't find out anything about his schooling. He came from Huddersfield in Yorkshire, my home town; will keep looking.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #263 on: February 24, 2023, 08:26:40 AM »
Think of the "class" implications of that in 1907 England when our young Mr. Barker eschewed the Bar and a potential privileged life of a barrister and timber farm owner for a working man's life on the links in America.


I couldn’t begin to imagine anything like that.




Touche'!   :)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #264 on: February 25, 2023, 12:47:46 PM »
I purchased "The Springhaven Club" history published in 2004 and written by the late Bob Labbance and Patrick White.   Rather than type out the section on Barker I've photographed and posted the associated pages below.


As mentioned earlier, since the time of publication Joe Bausch uncovered that a number of bunker additions and hole changes took place around 1914 attributed to (member) Alex Findlay with co-member J.H. Lineaweaver which was undiscovered when Labbance wrote the book.   As such, my guess is that some of what is seen on the ground in the earliest 1920s aerial photos may have been the work of Barker, or maybe the members built it to Barker's plans (to add 50 bunkers) but begs the question of why if the work was done in 1910 such a large effort was needed again 4 years later?   

In any case, as seen in earlier photos here, William Flynn in the mid-20s and early 30s made extensive bunkering changes, built some new greens, and also re-routed a few holes and created two new ones.   








"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #265 on: February 25, 2023, 01:03:31 PM »
Here is the April 1914 article Joe Bausch originally found, this reprinted from the Delaware County Times.   







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« Last Edit: February 25, 2023, 01:18:14 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #266 on: February 25, 2023, 01:23:45 PM »
Just came across this one from the Delaware County Times from March 1914.   


"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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John Challenger

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #267 on: March 08, 2023, 10:21:36 AM »
I wanted to acknowledge and recognize the excellence of the compilation and thought by Sven and Mike on this post. I have read carefully through all the articles here. I admit I started out overly cynical about H.H. Barker and the work he did in the U.S. from 1907 to 1914. It was mostly due to my simplistic understanding of Walter Travis, who was at the center of golf in the U.S. in the pre-war years and dominated whatever discipline he focused his attention upon. Certainly, there must have been times when Barker experienced and endured the force of Travis' personality. Still, I wasn't giving Walter Travis enough credit for his humanity. 


It seems clear that Barker completed most of his golf course designs on his own, especially after his first few years in the United States. I see Walter Travis as mostly a supportive and generous mentor to Barker, even if there were times when Travis was over-controlling. It's likely that Travis was mostly responsible for discovering Barker at the age of 24 and hiring him at Garden City in 1907. Walter Travis was Barker's patron in those first years. Travis enlisted Barker to work on the golf course with him at Garden City and Barker absorbed Travis' revolutionary ideas about how to design strategic and challenging golf courses. Travis helped his mentee to organize his start-up design business by placing ads for golf course design in his new magazine, American Golfer. It was a stroke of good luck. The magazine was an instant success and Barker was the only one advertising golf course design services in its first year. Travis gave Barker space in the magazine for bylined articles, which helped build his reputation. It's quite likely Travis helped him to write them. Barker would naturally have espoused some of the new ideas about golf architecture that Travis believed in. When requests for golf course design work came into the magazine in 1909 and 1910, Travis likely funneled them Barker's way. Barker would have  asked his mentor for advice on his early designs. He may not have had much choice especially in his first years at Garden City.

By 1911, Barker had flown the nest and was on his way. I give them both credit for such a positive relationship. I don't think Barker was just some kind of front for Travis' architectural ambitions. Like so many others' lives in this era just before WW1, Barker's life also took a big turn when the war started. He returned home and was caught up in the war effort. He stayed home after the war ended. During his years in the U.S., H.H. Barker worked extremely hard, traveled to many corners of the United States, and was an influential force in the early years of the Golden Age.  Even in his twenties, he had health issues. He died at the young age of 41 in 1924. He was a fast study, a hard worker, and quite likely the kind of person who was quickly able to establish trust with the local leaders he met on his visits to new and existing golf clubs. If the war had not occurred, it's not impossible to think he might have become one of the giants of the age.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2023, 08:06:32 PM by John Challenger »

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #268 on: March 09, 2023, 02:09:32 PM »
John Challenger,


I do agree with a lot of what you wrote but I still have lingering questions about the period of 1907 through early 1911, before he eventually moved south and clearly designed a number of courses there, primarily in Georgia and Alabama.   


I've been extremely busy lately and haven't had the "think time" to formulate a summary of my thoughts and remaining questions about the findings displayed here but I'm hopeful that I'll get a chance before too long.   Thanks for starting a good thread.




"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #269 on: August 05, 2023, 01:02:38 PM »
A bit more on Rumson.   Came across this article on Rumson from the July 3, 1910 NY Sun;





Also, an unattributed spring 1911 article (looks like NY Times) posted by Jim Kennedy a few years back.  From my perspective  based on the historical record, the "pros and amateurs" who weighed in would have been first Willie Norton, then Walter J. Travis, and then Herbert Barker, likely bunkering the course per Travis's plans, all under the supervision of Kellogg;





Also, this from the July 1, 1910 New York Times;

« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 01:13:52 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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Jim Sherma

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #270 on: August 05, 2023, 05:16:42 PM »

This should be up for GCA quote of the year.

Sven,


Think of the "class" implications of that in 1907 England when our young Mr. Barker eschewed the Bar and a potential privileged life of a barrister and timber farm owner for a working man's life on the links in America.

Can't imagine the dinner table discussions with his family but I'm really starting to like this guy.

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #271 on: August 06, 2023, 09:57:41 AM »
In the case of Rumson, I'm wondering if the club still has their early minutes or other artifacts.   Can't recall if the clubhouse is original or like too many burnt to the ground at some point.


Guess I can ask.  ;)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #272 on: August 07, 2023, 02:42:26 PM »
Rumson's original clubhouse burned down in 1945.   It was behind today's 5th tee, and it looks like the 4th today was the original closing hole.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #273 on: August 12, 2023, 11:01:48 AM »
I had the great pleasure of playing at Rumson yesterday and if Walter J. Travis wasn't the designer of some of those multi-faceted original greens I'd be very surprised.   As I was mentioning to someone else recently, the course is quite interesting architecturally, particularly being on flat land nearly at sea level with some drainage issue that are being very competently handled by the excellent superintendent.   


Lots of "ideal golf course" ideas implemented on the ground there, whether we call them templates or not.   Also interesting that the course opened shortly before NGLA, not that the courses are comparable, but many of the same ideas were employed.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #274 on: November 14, 2023, 02:44:01 PM »
Columbia from the Washington Herald shortly before course opening on 2/19/1911.




"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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