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MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #200 on: January 18, 2023, 04:16:30 PM »
It might be helpful to line up what is likely the Barker routing with the course as it exists today.   It appears, as I'll show later, that the idea/upkeep of the 18 hole course quickly went by the wayside and after orienting the routing with my understanding of the property after a few visits I have a few ideas why that might be.





"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #201 on: January 18, 2023, 05:00:47 PM »
It appears that the 18 hole course (presumed to be Barker's) opened in 1912, was advertised as 18 holes in 1913, but by 1914 I'm no longer seeing anything but a vague "golf" on their ads.


By August 1915, as shown in this syndicated news article printed in the Wilmington (DE) News Journal, the course was back to 9 holes where it remained until Donald Ross arrived in 1922, making changes and additions that opened in 1924.   Whether it was Tillinghast (1915 would make more sense for it to be Tilly) who consolidated down to 9 holes is the probable source.


"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #202 on: January 18, 2023, 06:07:54 PM »
Here's a summer 1914 ad noting 18 holes.  It would appear the contraction of the course to 9 holes took place between then and the 1915 season.

June 28, 1914 Washington Post -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #203 on: January 18, 2023, 06:47:54 PM »
Here's a summer 1914 ad noting 18 holes.  It would appear the contraction of the course to 9 holes took place between then and the 1915 season.

June 28, 1914 Washington Post -




Thanks, Sven.   


Today's course runs through a valley where a wide stream runs through the length of it.   Once you get out of the flatland plains surrounding the waterway, things get steep pretty fast.   I suspect that may have contributed to the early abandonment.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #204 on: January 18, 2023, 07:35:22 PM »
There was massive flooding in Pennsylvania in the summer of 1915, called the worst flood on record.  Perhaps it was the low lying holes that went out of service, and the higher ones remained in play.  Who knows.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #205 on: January 19, 2023, 08:54:53 AM »
There was massive flooding in Pennsylvania in the summer of 1915, called the worst flood on record.  Perhaps it was the low lying holes that went out of service, and the higher ones remained in play.  Who knows.


Sven,


I'm basing my guess on the land that Donald Ross used when he expanded the course back to 18 holes in 1922, opening in 1924, as he abandoned the holes drawn on that map in the Northeast Corner (as the map is oriented).


Incidentally, this 1924 article I earlier posted to your "Reunderstanding Ross" thread mentions the par threes and if one is not careful it might be interpreted that the 14th (aka "Little Tilly") is a new Ross hole.  However, I'm understanding that Tillinghast wrote a promotional pamphlet published in 1917 called "Planning A Golf Course" that included drawings and descriptions of holes he created and/or reconstructed that includes a drawing of the "2nd Hole" at Bedford Springs that has been named "Little Tilly" over the years so I think we've filled in the pieces here.


The only other thing I'd mention that I find interesting to our dialogue here is that if that's Barker's 18-hole routing, which I think we both now believe, is that it was done on a topographical map as I suspected, although the topo lines on our copy from the club's website are virtually invisible.






« Last Edit: January 19, 2023, 09:24:49 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #206 on: January 19, 2023, 09:15:18 AM »
Here is the aforementioned 1917 Tillinghast sketch of "Little Tilly" that Phil Young sent me some time ago.   I'm not sure I ever read the caption but it all now makes sense.


"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #207 on: January 19, 2023, 09:45:02 AM »
Mike:


There's no evidence that Barker drew that map or used a topographical map to design the course.  Bedford Springs used a guy named Martin Roudabush to survey the site in connection with the construction of the course.  Roudabush was hired in 1910, after Barker was there to design the course.  The map may be entirely his creation.


Let's not jump to conclusions here, again.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #208 on: January 19, 2023, 09:55:33 AM »
Mike:


There's no evidence that Barker drew that map or used a topographical map to design the course.  Bedford Springs used a guy named Martin Roudabush to survey the site in connection with the construction of the course.  Roudabush was hired in 1910, after Barker was there to design the course.  The map may be entirely his creation.


Let's not jump to conclusions here, again.


Sven


Sven,


Fair enough.   I may be taking the word "PLAN" on the map too literally although from a practical standpoint it seems a topo would have been very useful to navigate the thickly wooded hillsides the routing ventured into.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jim Sherma

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #209 on: January 19, 2023, 11:10:53 AM »
We know that Ross' eventual decision was to build the current course down on the valley floor. A lot of this area was repeatedly flooded leading to the need for Forse to fill/lift the entire valley floor in the rebuild (a few feet at least based on his telling when I played there with him). You could make a case that the routing up into the higher ground on the other side of the road was the right decision for a sustainable course on the available land.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #210 on: January 19, 2023, 11:57:54 AM »
Rumson CC


We're starting to behave as if we've reached the end of human knowledge. And while that notion is undoubtedly false, the certitude it generates is paralyzing. Chuck Klosterman, But What If We're Wrong

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #211 on: January 19, 2023, 12:22:18 PM »
Thanks for those photos of Rumson, Ian.   Do you know what year they are from?
Both Rumson and Arcola are courses that have long intrigued me.   I'm hoping to get to both sometime this year.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #212 on: January 20, 2023, 02:54:17 PM »
This might be a nice place to drop a photo of "Little Tilly" I took a few years ago during a visit to Bedford Springs.   


Now at least I know for certain that it's actually a Tillinghast hole!   ;D


"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #213 on: Yesterday at 04:00:40 PM »
Columbia CC -

I'm not going to delve into this one too much as the history of Columbia has been covered in great detail around here.  The early press reports from Aug. 1909 on note (a) a Barker layout or (b) a Barker and Ross layout with Travis involved later on.

By the sounds of the article below, it doesn't appear that Travis had seen the land prior to the layout being completed.

Oct. 26, 1909 Washington Times -






Columbia Country Club - While I'm still digging a bit deeper, it does seem the close friendship between Travis and Dr. Walter Harban, as well as his close relationships with Barker and Donald Ross makes this a natural collaborative effort.   Why else would it be news that Travis stopped by to survey the property for two days seeing what had been done to date in the fall of 1909 (likely simply a staked out and/or mapped out course at that point as the course didn't open until it did in stages during the summer of 1911) if not to provide his design input and blessing?


Another article I'm in possession of that I'm still trying to source states the following;


"Dr. L. Lee Harban, a prominent player of the Columbia Country Club, has the following to say of the work that has been done and is being done at the club.  "The Columbia Country Club, when completed, will be one of the finest in this part of the country.   The work of laying out the links has been approved by W. S. (sic) Travis and other prominent authorities on golf."


In May of 1909 Walter Travis was in Maryland playing at Chevy Chase and the original Columbia golf course from 5/14 through 5/17, returning again to Chevy Chase on 6/13.   Given his close friendship with Dr. Harban, it seems unlikely that he was viewing the property of the new course for Columbia in October as the article above implies.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #214 on: Yesterday at 04:09:56 PM »
Show me when Travis was in Cleveland and Youngstown and we can start to have that conversation.


Sven,


I've been looking at the Tournament schedule of Travis and the last time he played in Cleveland was at Euclid (the forerunner of Mayfield) in 1907.   However, in 1909 he traveled to Chicago (which would have passed in the proximity of both Youngstown and Cleveland (as well as Detroit & Skokie traveling west) where he played from 9/6 through 9/9.   


Other trips that same year had him at Columbia & Chevy Chase in May (5/14 - 5/17) & June 13 as mentioned, Philmont in July 7/18/ and 7/19 as mentioned, Atlantic City from 11/5 thru 11/7 and he basically wintered at Pinehurst what seems months at a time and would have certainly been accessible to Richmond, VA.   


In 1910 he was also in Chicago from 7/31 through 8/6.


In 1911 he was at East Lake in Atlanta 3/4 & 3/5 playing with George Adair and then spent 5/10 thru 5/13 at Chevy Chase.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:14:08 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #215 on: Yesterday at 04:17:49 PM »
It seems much more likely that Walter Travis rather than Jerome Travers was the person who brought Herbert Barker to Garden City because Travis was essentially in charge of the golf club, at that time.   10 days prior to reports of Barker coming to Garden City the Brooklyn Daily Eagle in July 1907 reported that Ben Sayres (sp), jr. had turned Travis down for the job.   That rejection had been previously reported in British papers in February of that year.


« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:21:53 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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