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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #100 on: December 27, 2022, 01:18:23 PM »
Skokie CC and Detroit GC -

I would assume that the work done here occurred on the same trip.  Two more instances where absent additional information I would find it hard to believe Travis had any input.

Oct. 1910 Golf Magazine -



April 16, 1911 Chicago Tribune -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #101 on: December 27, 2022, 01:30:51 PM »
East Lake GC -


Who did exactly what at ELGC is perhaps the biggest rope snag in all of GCA.  The names involved include Adair, Bendelow, Barker, Travis (as reported in his own magazine in 1911), Chick Evans, Alex Smith, Jimmy Maiden, Stewart Maiden, Fred McLeod, Ross, Vardon, Ray and Findlay.


The best information I have notes Barker was here in 1910, and then again around 1913 (he was in the neighborhood) when Adair had developed plans to rearrange the course.  At this point I don't know enough to decipher the details of the Barker and Travis involvement other than that the early Barker work seemingly coincides with the rebunkering of the course in 1910 and the Travis work appears to have taken place later.  I don't think Travis had any involvement with whatever Barker did in 1913.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2022, 01:36:10 PM »
I'm not into conspiracy theories but the "beard pulling of today" has been a part of the scam that has cost clubs millions for no reason in so many cases.  In twenty years much of it will be considered factual and the worst part is how often it has generated credibility to basic inexperience.  Lots of young guys doing good stuff right now but rarely do I see them as the beard pullers... 
To be clear...my bitch is with the BSers not a Barker or Travis.



Going to take a break before diving into 1911, but wanted to quickly comment on this post.

I hope that Mike Y. can see that everything going on in this thread is an attempt to get the record right, so as to avoid any "beard pulling" becoming factual.  I found the comments above as a bit of a slap in the face to those that have participated here with the intentions of avoiding (or at least clearly noting) speculation while working with the facts we do have available. 

It is hard to tell exactly who you consider to be a BSer.

Sven
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 01:47:08 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mike_Young

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2022, 04:44:29 PM »
I'm not into conspiracy theories but the "beard pulling of today" has been a part of the scam that has cost clubs millions for no reason in so many cases.  In twenty years much of it will be considered factual and the worst part is how often it has generated credibility to basic inexperience.  Lots of young guys doing good stuff right now but rarely do I see them as the beard pullers... 
To be clear...my bitch is with the BSers not a Barker or Travis.



Going to take a break before diving into 1911, but wanted to quickly comment on this post.

I hope that Mike Y. can see that everything going on in this thread is an attempt to get the record right, so as to avoid any "beard pulling" becoming factual.  I found the comments above as a bit of a slap in the face to those that have participated here with the intentions of avoiding (or at least clearly noting) speculation while working with the facts we do have available. 

It is hard to tell exactly who you consider to be a BSer.

Sven
Sven,Sorry if my comments seem to be a slap in the face...was never intended.  Let me use your newspaper clip regarding Barker at Skokie and Detroit GC.  I am confident that the news clip is factual as to him being there.  He may have left an example of a bunker cross section or something or he may have placed a couple of stakes to re route a hole.  Hell, we have had dudes come on this site and inform of us of recommendations (invited or uninvited)they made for clubs in their area but they had no part of getting it on the ground and finished.  They may not have even been asked for the suggestion but you can bet they show the photos as if they designed it.   
Hell, Arnold Palmer played an exhibiton at a course I am a member and he commented on a couple of greens and bunkers.  Probably less than a minute worth of comments and to this day we are told of how AP told us to place a bunker here or change this green slope.
I'm not saying what is reported is not backed up with articles etc.  I'm saying there was someone at all of these places that turned out well who knew what he was doing.  BUT a lot of clubs that are not on the radar had the same type of "someone" who had no clue what he was doing. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2022, 05:00:41 PM »
Mike,


You might have liked Barker.  Seems like he wanted to move to some of the courses where he was doing work.  Rumson and Roebuck are two examples where he was hired not only to be the pro but to oversee the work going on.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mike_Young

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2022, 05:05:01 PM »
Mike,


You might have liked Barker.  Seems like he wanted to move to some of the courses where he was doing work.  Rumson and Roebuck are two examples where he was hired not only to be the pro but to oversee the work going on.


Sven
Barker was at more courses in Georgia than are mentioned here.  However, the 50 year old frat boy board members will almost always say it is a "Ross" over a "Barker".  It's just the cool thing to do....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #106 on: December 28, 2022, 08:00:41 AM »
You'll be happy to know that this 57-year old frat boy will never have a club membership, nor be allowed to make even the slightest suggestion regarding change. I do know the type, too well, and I regret their influence.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #107 on: December 28, 2022, 12:09:04 PM »
Grove Park Inn -

After having Pickering, Findlay and others inspect the prospects for extending the course to 18 holes, Asheville CC (as it was known then) ended up going with Barker.  I have seen nothing to suggest Travis was involved here.

Jan. 12, 1911 Asheville Gazette-News -





Jan. 1911 Golf Magazine -



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2022, 12:25:10 PM »
Capital City CC (oka Brookhaven CC) -

Work on building the course started around May 1910.  The first reports confirming Barker's involvement that I've seen show up in 1911.

Barker returned in 1913 to assist in laying out the second 9 holes.

Aug. 13, 1911 Atlanta Constitution -



Oct. 1911 Golf Magazine -





Sept. 26, 1913 Atlanta Constitution -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #109 on: December 28, 2022, 12:28:44 PM »
Pocono Manor GC -

I haven't seen anything directly connecting Travis to this project.

March 6, 1911 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2022, 01:00:18 PM »
Roebuck Springs Club -

The club was organized in 1910 and work started on the course prior to Barker arriving on the scene.  After giving advice to Nicol Thompson on the initial layout, Barker would later accept the job of professional here to oversee the finished product.

Aug. 27, 1911 Birmingham Age Herald -



Jan. 1913 Golf Magazine -





Feb. 1914 American Golfer -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2022, 01:08:58 PM »
Raritan Valley CC (oka Somerville CC) -

One where there very well may have been a Travis connection, but the news reports make no mention of it.  The return of Barker in 1913 from the South seems to suggest this was him on his own.

Oct. 28, 1912 Courier-News -





March 13, 1913 The Sun -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2022, 01:23:48 PM »
Druid Hills GC -

By late 1912 Barker had left his second posting at Rumson and was transitioning to his role at Roebuck.  He was already known in the south at this point for both his play and his design work.

There are certainly connections between Travis and Adair, but the proximity of Barker at this point, combined with his site visits, suggest this was him on his own.

Nov. 1912 Golf Magazine -





1913 Spalding Official Golf Guide -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2022, 01:33:48 PM »
Charlotte CC (oka Mecklenburg CC)

Barker was brought in to consult on the suitability of a new site for the club and produced a layout on that land.  The club ended up going with Ross to rework its existing course.  Whether it was Travis recommending his two preferred guys or just the fact that they were the two biggest names in the business at the time remains a matter of speculation.

Dec. 10, 1912 Evening Chronicle -





Dec. 11, 1912 Evening Chronicle -



Dec. 17, 1912 Charlotte News -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #114 on: December 28, 2022, 01:46:07 PM »
...other courses off the top of my head this morning where Travis and Barker overlapped include Youngstown, Arcola, Rumson. Columbia, East Lake, and likely a few others ...


Taking a break before getting into the last two years of Barker's resume.  I don't expect much in the way of any Travis connections for the remaining courses.

Before moving on I wanted to quickly post this comment from Ed Homsey (taken from the Travis Society site) regarding their treatment of Travis and Youngstown.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #115 on: December 29, 2022, 11:07:19 AM »
Indian Hill Club -

The concept of the "Winnetka Golf Club" first appeared in the press in late 1912.  By April of 1913 Barker was attached to the project.  It would appear that the club capitalized on Colt's presence in Chicago and brought him in to offer his advice, as by the end of that year the course was being noted as having been laid out by Barker and Colt. 

Hoping John will chime in on this one with more information.

April 20, 1913 Inter Ocean -



Dec. 1913 American Golfer -




« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 11:28:16 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #116 on: December 29, 2022, 11:48:58 AM »
Palm Beach CC -

Barker's involvement at PBCC has been swept under the rug a bit, as the project was taken over by Donald Ross in early 1916.

The idea for a course on the site of the old Florida Gun Club started in 191, with Barker being called in to inspect the site and eventually producing a layout in early 1914.

The Travis Society notes he consulted for the Palm Beach Club in 1912 which I assume is the same project discussed here.  If so, it is possible Travis recommended Barker for this work.  It should also be noted that a 1925 article notes that the original survey for the site was done by Langford in 1912.

Jan. 16, 1914 Birmingham Post-Herald -





Feb. 1914 American Golfer -





March 1914 American Golfer -



Nov. 1914 Golf Illustrated -

« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 12:06:28 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #117 on: December 30, 2022, 08:13:09 PM »
I'll try to read on the plane tomorrow and add over the weekend.  Thanks, Sven.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #118 on: January 01, 2023, 12:17:32 PM »
Tallahassee CC (aka Capital City CC) -

Nothing directly suggesting a Travis connection here.

Jan. 1914 American Golfer -



Nov. 12, 1916 Tampa Tribune -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #119 on: January 01, 2023, 12:28:31 PM »
Cherokee CC -

Barker was brought in to extend the 9 hole course originally laid out by Bernard Nicholls.  The articles suggest Barker was to return to refine the course and add bunkers.  With his return to England, the club brought in Ross in 1919 to do this work.

I have not seen Travis connected with this club.

July 6, 1914 Knoxville Sentinel -



April 3, 1915 Knoxville Sentinel -



June 29, 1916 Chattanooga Daily Times -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #120 on: January 01, 2023, 12:36:08 PM »
Idle Hour Club -

Another course were Barker worked on rearranging an existing nine and adding another nine holes.

July 19, 1914 Birmingham News -



Sept. 1914 American Golfer -



Nov. 1914 American Golfer -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #121 on: January 01, 2023, 12:45:19 PM »
Belle Meade CC -

Bendelow was originally brought in around 1911 to design the Nashville G&CC's new course.  Work on the course began in Nov. of 1914, with reports from 1916 noting it was laid out by Barker.

Nov. 1914 American Golfer -





July 16, 1916 The Tennessean -







"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #122 on: January 01, 2023, 12:50:37 PM »
Chattanooga G&CC -

Seemingly covering the major clubs in Tennessee from his base in Birmingham, Barker's activity in the South continued at Chattanooga.


It should be noted that by late 1914/early 1915 Barker had already been considering returning to England.  He ended up delaying that voyage, and in the interim left Roebuck for a position at "Richmond County CC" (by certain accounts this move was to Richmond, VA, not the course on Staten Island).

Dec. 22, 1914 Chattanooga Daily Times -



Feb. 4, 1915 Chattanooga Daily Times -



« Last Edit: January 01, 2023, 01:32:16 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #123 on: January 01, 2023, 01:10:34 PM »
New Orleans CC -

The club moved to new grounds in 1915, with the course opening in 1916.  A 1919 report notes Harry Turpie built this course according to Barker's plans.

June 1919 Golfers Magazine -





"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walter Travis and his Impact on H.H. Barker and Donald Ross
« Reply #124 on: January 01, 2023, 01:13:36 PM »
Westhampton CC -

Widely reported as a Raynor project, there is one report from 1915 noting Barker's involvement.

Feb. 1915 Golf Magazine -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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