[MKrohn]

There was a thread here not that long ago about grassless courses in the Middle East. I can't find it. IIRC, most of the posters on that thread said they would take a hard pass at courses like that.

I played a bunch of courses in Asia where the fairways were unirrigated, and the turf was spotty depending on the season.  The golf was still fun, but you wouldn't pay a lot of money for it.  That's why no one considers the solution; all of those golf courses spent $2.5m on an irrigation system and the economics are all predicated on keeping the hamster wheel spinning.

Tom,


Think most of your work in Aust and NZ has been done in areas where water wasn't so much of an issue.


Given the timing of your Concord work, I presume you had to address water sustainability in the design, most clubs I know have it as at least a top 3 priority as the cost of water in Sydney is massive if you can't harvest it (via bores or run off).


Maybe overseeding happens out here however if it's done I'm not sure where.


Any Saffers here, what happened to golf in Cape Town when the drought of a few years ago was at its height.

[Tom_Doak]

MKrohn:


Water is an issue almost everywhere in Australia, though maybe not as much in Tasmania.  All of the Sandbelt clubs have had to scrape around to find enough water to sustain themselves.  And yes, Concord, too, along with others in Sydney.


And though it's rainy by Australian standards, Tara Iti and Te Arai have a limited local water supply, to the point that they are thinking about oversewing the fairways at Te Arai with couch grass and letting it be dormant in winter, because that's less annual water use than fescue, which requires some water year-round.


I'm not sure how droughty Cape Kidnappers is, but it had its own water issues . . . all of the water for the golf course is collected at the bottom of the hill and pumped up the driveway to a reservoir at the top.  The pipeline and the entrance road, combined, cost more to construct than the golf course.

[David_Tepper]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

[Jake McCarty]

Mr. Doak,


As an aside, you no doubt aware of the current state of the Rawls course and the cost of water in West Texas. What's the solution?

[Mike Wagner]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

[Cal Carlisle]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

I have a turfgrass degree and have probably one of the shittiest looking lawns on the block.
A) It's a waste of time
B) It's a waste of money
C) I have a 42" diameter hickory and a 24" diameter red oak that shade most of the front lawn and suck out most of the water out of the soil profile.
It's grass. Who cares?

[Sean_A]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

I never watered, weeded or treated my back lawn. I cut it short...that's it. When the daisies and buttercups came up I cut around them. Most years I daisies had all year long. My take has always been that grass is just another type of weed.

Ciao

[Mike Wagner]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

I have a turfgrass degree and have probably one of the shittiest looking lawns on the block.
A) It's a waste of time
B) It's a waste of money
C) I have a 42" diameter hickory and a 24" diameter red oak that shade most of the front lawn and suck out most of the water out of the soil profile.
It's grass. Who cares?

Totally cool your choice to look shitty. I wouldn't be cool with it if I was your neighbor, but then it's my choice to move.

[Charlie Goerges]

It would still be cool to hear from people either:


a. ideas to save a lot of water


or


b. whether you'd accept a pretty radical change to conditioning (i.e. 2-3x longer fairway turf or much slower greens)








We've heard some, but would love to hear more.

[Ben Sims]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.


Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.

[Mike Wagner]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.


Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.

Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."

[archie_struthers]

 


Buck , I'm sure desalinization is a wave of the future . Perhaps it would help with management of the sea level at some point in time.
It has always surprised me that more efficient ways to do this weren't available. Don't know if it's corporate greed by the existing utilities or really that hard.


As one who would love to see golf courses firmer and faster, at least in the fairway, a little brown turf wouldn't curtail any of my play!

[John Emerson]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.


Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.

Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."

What exactly is “shitty” about it?

[Sean_A]

It would still be cool to hear from people either:

a. ideas to save a lot of water

or

b. whether you'd accept a pretty radical change to conditioning (i.e. 2-3x longer fairway turf or much slower greens)

We've heard some, but would love to hear more.

I would happily accept higher fairways heights.

Ciao

[archie_struthers]

 


When it comes to turf beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Most of us here in the USA don't accept hard and fast. Can't believe how many of our customers /fellow golfers want to see greens that are more like dart boards.


But like anything if more of the leaders in the industry promoted this with real publicity and $$$'s we could make this the norm in time. Just think how many burnt out muni's would be "in vogue"."




Spend the money on the greens

[Chris Tritabaugh]

As a superintendent, it would be my opinion that the average golf course could reduce water by 50% or more, without any major issue for the turf. Of course it would be 50% of the right amount for that golf course. 50% is also an average. Some courses are already using the minimum amount, others much more than the minimum. The way I would probably put it, is that most courses have a good deal of safety built into their water use and they are happy to use that buffer, because no one has told them they cannot.


My purpose isn't to be critical of colleagues; in most cases, they are doing what is required of them by those to whom they report. At the same time, if challenged to use less, I'm certain nearly everyone would be able to do so.


The other issue that needs to be solved and its much more difficult than simply reducing water use on an existing course--making sure courses are growing the right grass for their location. Not every course is able to change their grass. Nearly every course is able to use less water. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Chris is so right about water usage. Again it would be great if some of the "great" courses promoted firm and fast and not necessarily green and lush. Never forgot that great US Amateur final where Buddy Marucci from Philly took Tiger to the 36th hole at Newport CC, one of the last times a tournament like this was played on a course with little or no irrigation. It was so much fun watching the ball rolling and rolling all over the place. Tiger hit a couple shots late in the round which showed how special his talent was. But of course he won!  Now that was firm and fast for sure.


 Almost twenty years ago in at the start of a two year drought all the courses in our area were asked to voluntary limit our water use. Some of us complied by really squeezing the bottle and we really concentrated on greens , surrounds and a little for tees and fairways. Some courses didn't help the cause of conservation and just watered as usual. too much of course. The drought continued and NJ imposed strict limitations of usage the next year. To our surprise ( my bad for not seeing it coming ) they gave everyone half of their usage from the previous year punishing all of us who had tried hard to be stewards.  Thankfully we had a friend at DEP who helped illuminate the cognoscenti in the halls of government right before we lost all our turf they gave us half our normal allocation.


Makes you wonder? 


 

[Charlie Goerges]

Archie, the phenomenon you mentioned is exactly why I think a more concerted effort is needed. You did the right thing by reducing usage voluntarily, but since it was voluntary, no surprise there were those who didn't participate. And of course everyone got punished the next time, it's incredibly predictable.


It sounds like whole regions are going to have to make big cuts (20% was mentioned in some articles) Well, it won't be across the board. Hospitals and agriculture probably won't have to cut much, so other places (like golf or lawns) are going to have to make up the difference. I have a feeling this will be just the start.




Chris, you mention some pretty significant slack in the system. You say cuts of 50% (on average) could be made with no significant problems for the turf. I'm curious whether this really applies in the desert as well. I'm also super curious what the saving could be if we significantly raised the HOC in fairways and maybe even greens as well as accepting slightly browner-looking conditions?


I feel like if it isn't a concerted effort, it will play out everywhere just like it did in Archie's example. Some making an effort, some not, and then everyone gets hammered badly later. Am I wrong to be thinking this way?

[Charlie Goerges]

I would happily accept higher fairways heights.

Ciao

I would too. In fact, at my skill level, my average score might go down, at least compared with better players.

[Bruce Katona]

Watering is an expense; even if you have drilled on-site wells with enough daily allocation permitted to keep your facility ANGC green in the toughest of summer conditions. Well pumps typically run on electric; and unless you have solar or on-site wind turbines, electric isn't free.


if you have to purchase either potable or reclaimed water for irrigation, the cost of irrigation is an even more significant portion of your annual operating budget. Who wouldn't want to save money based on the above costs?


Well, the simple bugs & bunnies tree hugging response is to not water golf courses during the time of year where where is a more valued commodity, like a residential lawn.  My lawn (and attached residence) pay real estate taxes if the turf is green, brown or dirt. A golf course, a taxed commercial venture tax, generates tax income sales of greens fees, balls, gloves, food beverages, etc. Altering significantly the delivery of a private good and services supplier isn't healthy for the long term tax rate base of a community, especially if that user of water pre-existed most of the newer residential development.


I'm all for brown/green fast & firm; water logged turf isn't what the game is about. Most locations, even those not in an arid climate, require irrigation to cool the turf down on hot days so it can survive. Let's just be logical on how we discuss this.

[Mike Wagner]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.


Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.

Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."

What exactly is “shitty” about it?

Exactly this kind of shit:


To have a well maintained lawn is a sign to others that you have the time and/or the money to support this attraction. It signifies that you care about belonging and want others to see that you are like them.

[Thomas Dai]

I am reminded of Monty Pythons Yorkershiremen sketch ……. “..luxuary, …”
Once upon a time folks didn’t have lawns at all let alone lawns to be watered to look nice and show-off the neighbourhood.
Instead they had gardens where they grew vegetables for the pot and for the table.
In some parts of the World they still do.
Atb

[JohnVDB]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.


Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.

Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."

A yard with grass can be much more beautiful than one with grass.



In 1989 my wife and I bought a house in the center of Portland, OR.  After messing around with a crappy looking lawn, my wife said she wanted to tear it out and plant flowers. I was good with that as it meant I didn’t have to mow anymore.


So, we replaced the grass with plants, flowers and stone walkways.  We put in drip irrigation so we didn’t use much water. It looked beautiful.


Every spring when the tulips and other flowers bloomed, we had people knock on our door and ask if they could take pictures of their kids in our garden.


When Portland had a drought, they cut back on lawn watering and our next door neighbor who had a beautiful lawn almost cried while his lawn turned brown and out garden looked perfect.

[Mike Wagner]

"The American Obsession with Lawns"

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anthropology-in-practice/the-american-obsession-with-lawns/?utm_source=pocket-newtab

I don't understand people who write this stuff. Do they dress like slobs too and not care? Do they just bend over and accept shitty looking things? Don't get me wrong, I'm down with brown golf .. in fact, I think it's a better playing surface ... just not outside my house.

Is this code for saying that water consumption isn’t an issue? Trying to parse your reasoning here is difficult.


Personal opinion, I think that some pretty radical changes to landscaping and golf expectations in the American west are coming. Zero-scaped lawns and brown fairways will be the norm. I’m not one to think that the sky is falling, but I do think ESG factors will absolutely affect the turf industry in the west (lawn and golf) in the near to mid-term.

Nope .. just saying it's a shitty article with ridiculous conclusions on why people want their property to look good. Let's just say my opinions are not popular in "safe spaces."

A yard with grass can be much more beautiful than one with grass.



In 1989 my wife and I bought a house in the center of Portland, OR.  After messing around with a crappy looking lawn, my wife said she wanted to tear it out and plant flowers. I was good with that as it meant I didn’t have to mow anymore.


So, we replaced the grass with plants, flowers and stone walkways.  We put in drip irrigation so we didn’t use much water. It looked beautiful.


Every spring when the tulips and other flowers bloomed, we had people knock on our door and ask if they could take pictures of their kids in our garden.


When Portland had a drought, they cut back on lawn watering and our next door neighbor who had a beautiful lawn almost cried while his lawn turned brown and out garden looked perfect.

No doubt. For the record, I'm in AZ, have artificial turf, and zero grass. It looks perfect all the time.

[jeffwarne]

It would still be cool to hear from people either:

a. ideas to save a lot of water

or

b. whether you'd accept a pretty radical change to conditioning (i.e. 2-3x longer fairway turf or much slower greens)

We've heard some, but would love to hear more.

I would happily accept higher fairways heights.

Ciao

win, win ,win
More turf to get a club on
more firmness to the bounce
less pure grass "speed: so contours are embraced not avoided


better players would have to judge fliers precisely whenwetter/rainier occur, rather than poorer players being forced to attempt to compress the ball with minimal turf exposed on soft moist super short turf


Of course no one ever got a raise by lowering a budget....

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