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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2022, 08:59:38 PM »
This discussion has me curious.  What percentage of Senior Tour players ride in a cart?


I can't imagine Pádraig Harrington is doing it while he is still trying to compete on two levels.  I don't know about Stephen Alker, Steve Stricker, or Bernhard Longer.  And they, of course, are the ones who are making all the $$$$.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2022, 10:40:10 PM »
 :D  Last couple of years at the Champions Tour Insperity, I've seen 6-10 players in carts and the old TPC layout is pretty flat... seems about same as number of wives caddying...


I believe player or caddy can ride 9 or 18 but not both together is rule


used to see Fuzzy walk, then he went carting... must have been the vodka... John Daly always rides now...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2022, 05:34:53 PM »
Why does golf need him?


Agreed.


For years golf has ignored myriad other great (and really good) golfers to focus on ONLY Tiger. There are more stories to be had besides the Tiger one.


And, if he was against Casey Martin (LOL, not Paul Casey, thanks!) using a cart, NO WAY should e even ask for one.


Maybe he can go to the LIV Tour and wear shorts while he uses a cart?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 02:11:21 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Last 5:
Bobby Jones (FL) Arcadia Municipal (FL) Eisenhower Lakes (GA) Augusta Municipal (GA) Foresthills GC (GA)

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2022, 08:49:40 PM »
I think he's stubborn and should use a cart, he is clearly dissabled
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2022, 08:55:34 PM »
Richard....Casey Martin, NOT Paul Casey.....Tiger said he would never use a cart.....And, lastly, he has been critical of the 54 Hole Tour and would not join it even if he could play in shorts and no top.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2022, 09:59:51 PM »
  I understand the question posed to be whether Tiger should be allowed to use a cart. The answer is: yes, he’s disabled; it’s the law. Whether he should is totally up to him. He says he won’t unless all competitors can. End of story.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2022, 05:04:29 AM »
  I understand the question posed to be whether Tiger should be allowed to use a cart. The answer is: yes, he’s disabled; it’s the law. Whether he should is totally up to him. He says he won’t unless all competitors can. End of story.


That is simply not true. From the ADA website:


https://www.ada.gov/topics/title-iii/


A business does not need to modify a policy if it would fundamentally alter the nature of the business’s goods or services. A fundamental alteration would be something that causes a change in the essential nature of your business. For example, a clothing store is not required to provide dressing assistance for a customer with a disability if this is not a service provided to other customers.

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2022, 07:50:39 AM »
   Am I missing something? Didn’t Casey Martin win in the Supreme Court?

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2022, 07:51:25 AM »
Am I missing something? Didn’t Casey Martin win in the Supreme Court?
I think it's Mike who is unaware, yes.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2022, 09:40:18 AM »
   Am I missing something? Didn’t Casey Martin win in the Supreme Court?


He did but according to this article the ruling was for Casey Martin only.....


"PGA Commissioner Tim Finchem said the court made it clear that it was ruling only on the case of Casey Martin, and that it seems to have left the PGA some latitude to continue its rule on requiring players to walk."


https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93180&page=1
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2022, 10:03:04 AM »
Pretty sure even though he played with Casey in College he was against his use of a cart. Could be wrong but that’s my recollection.


“Woods’s stance on using golf carts on the PGA Tour is not a new one, and he made sure to acknowledge that to the media on Tuesday. Woods attended Stanford with former PGA Tour player and now Oregon men’s golf coach, Casey Martin. In 2001, Martin sued the PGA Tour under the Americans with Disabilities Act for the right to use a golf cart during tournaments. Martin has Klippel-Trenaunay syndrome in his right leg, which he had amputated above the knee in ’21. The lawsuit, PGA Tour, Inc. v. Martin, reached the U.S. Supreme Court, where justices ruled in favor of Martin. They declared that the ADA prevents the PGA Tour from requiring Martin to walk.
“You know, my teammate was Casey Martin, O.K.?” Tiger said. “What he did with the ADA, I voted against it. I think [walking] is an integral part of the game, at our level. I will never take a golf cart until it is sanctioned. It is sanctioned on the Champions Tour, and PNC is part of that. As far as a regular event, no, I would never do that.”
Woods was supportive of Casey Martin using a cart.


Tiger offers support to ex-roomie (capecodtimes.com)




Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2022, 10:17:55 AM »
Am I missing something? Didn’t Casey Martin win in the Supreme Court?
I think it's Mike who is unaware, yes.


I work with the Developmentally Disabled, so I am completely aware on this issue from 16 different perspectives. We have one wheelchair child on our campus and it works because of a completely dedicated family and team.


I will let the ABC News article above speak to the nature of Casey Martin's ruling.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2022, 10:56:21 AM »
   Every case only applies to the litigants. The next case is always about distinguishing it from the precedent.  As Tiger said on tv yesterday, “I can play golf. I just can’t walk.”  That’s the Casey Martin case. I’m sure one could find a lawyer to get well paid to try to distinguish the two cases. He would lose, but would keep the money.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2022, 11:04:44 AM »
   Every case only applies to the litigants. The next case is always about distinguishing it from the precedent.  As Tiger said on tv yesterday, “I can play golf. I just can’t walk.”  That’s the Casey Martin case. I’m sure one could find a lawyer to get well paid to try to distinguish the two cases. He would lose, but would keep the money.

I will do it for nothing and win.

Casey Martin was born with KTS -

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10015047-former-pga-tour-golfer-casey-martin-has-leg-amputated-due-to-circulatory-disorderKlippel-Trenaunay (klih-PEL tray-no-NAY) syndrome ― also called KTS ― a rare disorder found at birth (congenital) involving abnormal development of blood vessels, soft tissues (such as skin and muscles), bones, and the lymphatic system. The main features include a red birthmark (port-wine stain), overgrowth of tissues and bones, and vein malformations with or without lymphatic abnormalities.[/size]"Although there is no cure for KTS, the goal is to manage symptoms and prevent complications."

__________________________________________

Tiger Woods injuries are from the wear and tear of a very successful golf life.

They are not comparable circumstances.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2022, 11:24:44 AM »
   That’s what is known as a distinction without a difference. Do you really think it would make a difference whether your wheel chair child were born with a disability or suffered it in a car accident?
   The Supreme Court ruled that walking is not an integral part of the game of golf. The Tour argued otherwise and lost. Go find a lawyer willing to make your argument. You’ll pay dearly, but you’ll lose.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 11:36:38 AM by Jim_Coleman »

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2022, 12:07:25 PM »
Jim,


The USGA turned down John Daly in 2018 for an exemption for the US SENIOR Open:


https://www.desertsun.com/story/sports/golf/2019/05/09/golfers-riding-cart-still-tiny-exception-not-rule-game/1154319001/


PGA of America allowed Daly to use a cart, certainly in part because he has an exemption as a former PGA Champion. It never got to lawyers.

Facts are the Martin decision is just that - one decision. [/font][/font]

I rode in a cart (just a few holes when Jerry Barber wanted to walk) as a caddy in a 1984 Senior PGA TOUR tournament in Rhode Island, so carts were allowed on the Senior Tour from very early on, and I think always.

Certainly we have seen the Supreme Court reverse decisions. My issue is the of these marque cases. Their implications in the real world often have "unintended complications". I live it.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 05:19:04 AM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2022, 12:26:09 PM »
The American with Disabilities Act is one of the great pieces of legislation of the last 50 years or more.  It literally opened doors for people with all types of disabilities that substantially limit a major life function.  It has led to better lives for the hearing impaired, people with intellectual disabilities, severe arthritis, autism, etc.  An ancillary effect has been to welcome these folks into the mainstream of society.  No longer does one go to the supermarket and see others gawking at someone with a noticeable disability.  Indeed we now even have commercials featuring the disabled.


The Casey Martin legal case was folly on the part of the PGA Tour.  It is always a mistake to give control to the courts,  This was an individual case and the PGA Tour would have been much wiser to allow the cart and keep it out of the court.


There were four components to the case: 1. Did CM have a disability under ADA? 2. Was a golf tournament a place of public accommodation?  3. Was walking an essential part of PGA tour golf competition? 4. Was the use of a cart a reasonable accommodation?


The court decision is limited to Casey Martin only because disabilities need to be determined on a case by case basis.  Parts 2,3, and 4 would likely apply to anyone who is found to have a disability under ADA.


Part 3 is the trickiest of the 3 components.  Casey Martin had used a cart at Stanford.  Carts were allowed in the first two stages of Q school, but not in the third.  There is nothing in the rules of golf that says one must walk.  The PGA's mandate of walking only was therefore based on tradition.  Certainly tradition has been the basis for much discrimination.


The PGA needed to show that the use of a cart would fundamentally alter the nature of the golf tournament.  As is typical, ambiguous language open to interpretation and the key phrase is fundamentally alter. The court ruled it would not and that walking was not indispensable to the competition.


Whether Tiger Woods or any other golfer qualifies for a cart would again be up to the PGA tour. If denied, and Tiger or another pursued this, again the court would need to rule.  It makes no difference the cause of the disability.  Congenital, accident or wear and tear.  If one has severe arthritis from wear and tear and cannot walk they are indeed disabled under ADA.


It was a huge error for the PGA Tour to have denied Casey Martin and allowed the court to intervene.  There is now precedence.  Then again with this court does precedence matter?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 12:29:13 PM by Cliff Hamm »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2022, 01:40:00 PM »
Richard....Casey Martin, NOT Paul Casey.....Tiger said he would never use a cart.....And, lastly, he has been critical of the 54 Hole Tour and would not join it even if he could play in shorts and no top.

I think it needs to be clarified that Tiger certainly would take a cart if it were sanctioned by the Tour, even if there is little to zero chance they would do it, although I could see LIV allowing it.

From a previous quote by Tiger

"I will never take a golf cart until it is sanctioned."

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2022, 05:20:45 PM »
Woods was supportive of Casey Martin using a cart.
No, he voted against it. After the ruling, he was "supportive of his former teammate," but he didn't agree with the Casey ruling, and has said he believes walking is an integral part of the event. That he's not even willing to offer himself an exemption in his own event (the HERO) speaks to that.

“You know, my teammate was Casey Martin, O.K.?” Tiger said. “What he did with the ADA, I voted against it. I think [walking] is an integral part of the game, at our level. I will never take a golf cart until it is sanctioned. It is sanctioned on the Champions Tour, and PNC is part of that. As far as a regular event, no, I would never do that.”
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 05:23:06 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2022, 05:49:34 AM »
It was a huge error for the PGA Tour to have denied Casey Martin and allowed the court to intervene.  There is now precedence.  Then again with this court does precedence matter?


Cliff,


That is a very thoughtful response. Thanks for that.


I disagree that it was a mistake. The precedence has rarely (never?) been used on the PGA TOUR, and John Daly received two separate, very different decisions from the PGA of America and USGA in the 2018-19 era.


If the Supreme Court kicked most of their decisions back to the States, that would be a preferred path by me, most of the time. I am a believer in decentralized decision making at the local level.


Thanks again, your response was appreciated.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2022, 12:35:13 PM »
Using a cart on the senior circuit is likely much different than on the regular tour. Infrastructure is different in size and scope, crowd size is different. When Casey was given a cart, it was of single person size designed to be driven on concrete or asphalt. He had trouble negotiating the crowds and the slopes because he had to travel on cart paths as much as possible, probably having to navigate through crowds four times per hole (on average). It would be a beast on days when lift/clean/place is in effect,

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2022, 02:25:39 PM »
Using a cart on the senior circuit is likely much different than on the regular tour. Infrastructure is different in size and scope, crowd size is different. When Casey was given a cart, it was of single person size designed to be driven on concrete or asphalt. He had trouble negotiating the crowds and the slopes because he had to travel on cart paths as much as possible, probably having to navigate through crowds four times per hole (on average). It would be a beast on days when lift/clean/place is in effect,


I played with Casey in Knoxville (Korn ferry) for two rounds. We had pretty good crowds mostly due to Casey (not a pga tour crowd for sure).   A pretty hilly course, and his logistics were pretty straightforward.


My first “regular” champions tour event, I was having some Achilles issues and took advantage of the cart access.  There weren’t many using carts.  I didn’t count, probably less than 10?


It wasn’t easy in a few spots, but fairly doable without stress. Made things a lot easier for me with what I was dealing with

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2022, 03:50:28 PM »
I can't imagine Pádraig Harrington is doing it while he is still trying to compete on two levels.  I don't know about Stephen Alker, Steve Stricker, or Bernhard Longer


Love this!!!! Sorry Tom...this may be the first typo I've ever seen from you! Or maybe you slyly slid it in there?


Cheers

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2022, 05:04:17 PM »



I played with Casey in Knoxville (Korn ferry) for two rounds. We had pretty good crowds mostly due to Casey (not a pga tour crowd for sure).   A pretty hilly course, and his logistics were pretty straightforward.


My first “regular” champions tour event, I was having some Achilles issues and took advantage of the cart access.  There weren’t many using carts.  I didn’t count, probably less than 10?


It wasn’t easy in a few spots, but fairly doable without stress. Made things a lot easier for me with what I was dealing with



Pat….Would it be fair to presume that the low number of cart users implies an insignificant advantage to using a cart rather than walking?  or do you think it was more peer pressure/image or whatever?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 05:06:28 PM by Cliff Hamm »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Should Tiger be able to use a cart?
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2022, 05:53:09 PM »
Looking forward to watching the Whale this weekend at a dine-in theater. I'll probably be 4000 calories in before I walk out. And no, I can't walk four rounds of 5 hour tournament golf either. My disability, my choice.


Let's not dilute excellent legislation so a billionaire can pad his stats.

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