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Tommy Williamsen

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In the past couple of decades, architects have designed courses on the coasts of Oregon, Nova Scotia, Ireland, Scotland, New Zealand, Australia, Hawaii, New York, Norway, South Africa, Southeast Asia, Mexico, St. Lucia, and probably others I missed. England and Wales are conspicuously missing. An argument could be made that exciting oceanfront sites are more plentiful than ever in the game's history. No wonder we are getting such varied great places to play. The late 1800s were good for GB&I, but worldwide there has never been a better time to build courses.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2022, 02:26:05 PM »
Seven Mile Beach in Hobart is coming too - opening at the end of 2023 or early 2024. It took Mat Goggin (who played with Tom Watson in that final round at Turnberry) a decade to get all the necessary permits to build on crown land.There'd be no chance in Europe of being able to build so close (no construction within 50 meters of the high water mark) to the coast.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2022, 02:29:38 PM »
If true why are they building a replica of an abandoned oceanfront course in Wisconsin?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 02:31:57 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Tom_Doak

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2022, 02:41:27 PM »
If true why are they building a replica of an abandoned oceanfront course in Wisconsin?


I believe they looked for oceanfront sites to do that and couldnít find one that suited.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2022, 02:45:03 PM »
Thank you

Tom_Doak

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2022, 02:50:33 PM »
In the past couple of decades, architects have designed courses on the coasts of Oregon, Nova Scotia, Ireland, Scotland, New Zealand, Australia, Hawaii, New York, Norway, South Africa, Southeast Asia, Mexico, St. Lucia, and probably others I missed. England and Wales are conspicuously missing. An argument could be made that exciting oceanfront sites are more plentiful than ever in the game's history. No wonder we are getting such varied great places to play. The late 1800s were good for GB&I, but worldwide there has never been a better time to build courses.


There are actually the same number of oceanfront sites there have always been - as the old saw about real estate investment goes, they arenít making any more of it.


Whatís changed is that someone showed you could make money developing a golf course in a remote location, if it is on the ocean.


But it is also true that itís harder than ever to get permits to build next to the ocean.  We had no restriction at Cape Kidnappers in 2003, but by 2013 for Tara Iti we had to stay 100 meters back (actually had to give away the 100 meters to the local government), and for Te Arai it was 135 meters.


In the EU, it isnít happening, as Mike says.  Norway and the UK are not in the EU, so itís possible there.  Likewise, itís just not possible in California, but maybe in other places in North America.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2022, 05:05:34 PM »
With the plethora of new courses on the ocean in those remote places, it makes golf travel more exciting. Thank you Dick Youngscap and Mike Keiser, I guess.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2022, 05:07:14 PM »

I believe that the Lido was discussed for the Old Mac land, but as suggested by the architect, it and other properties were not ones that suited.



If true why are they building a replica of an abandoned oceanfront course in Wisconsin?


I believe they looked for oceanfront sites to do that and couldnít find one that suited.
Maybe for 2022
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2022, 05:22:41 PM »
You can thank a shift in society that first promoted an illusion of success by leasing a car. Now that all your family and friends can see where you golf leasing a course has become the natural option.

Sean_A

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2022, 04:08:44 AM »
You can thank a shift in society that first promoted an illusion of success by leasing a car. Now that all your family and friends can see where you golf leasing a course has become the natural option.

It is interesting how we went from the days of country club for the day in the 80s and 90s to golf resort travel destination for the extended weekend. The ccfd wasn't considered sustainable, yet using natural resources and leaving large carbon footprints to travel the globe is sustainable. The glory of spin.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood, Sandiway & Ladybank

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2022, 04:14:26 AM »
I believe that Frank Casey (Rosapenna) told us recently at the Renaissance Cup that St Patrick's was likely the last seaside course that will be built in Ireland.  Just too hard to get approvals. 


Speaking of seaside here's a related fact that was eye-opening for me.  Of the around 35,000 or so golf courses worldwide only about 275 are considered links courses - none in N America.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2022, 08:18:43 PM »
I believe that Frank Casey (Rosapenna) told us recently at the Renaissance Cup that St Patrick's was likely the last seaside course that will be built in Ireland.  Just too hard to get approvals. 

Speaking of seaside here's a related fact that was eye-opening for me.  Of the around 35,000 or so golf courses worldwide only about 275 are considered links courses - none in N America.


As noted above, E.U. environmental regulations generally forbid development on untouched dunes land / links ground, and Ireland is, of course, still part of the E.U.  The only reason St. Patrick's was permitted is that there was a golf course on the property when the E.U. was formed and they drew their red lines on the map, and they drew the line right around the fence line of St. Patrick's.  The dune blowouts to the right of the first and third holes [inland from the golf course] are on dunes land that is protected from development!


As to your statistic, if Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes aren't links courses, then neither are a fair number of courses in the U.K. and Ireland that everyone calls links.  The 7th at Ballybunion and the 4th at Pacific Dunes are essentially the same hole; I don't know why one would be a links and the other not, except to try and rule out an American course.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2022, 03:13:49 AM »
There exist 'lessor' seaside courses in the UK which with a bit of will, imagination and business nouse could be upgraded to something much more significant via a 'deal' with the membership/owners. There are also holiday camps/caravan sites in some superb dunes with a golf course of dubious spec on site that could be purchased by a developer or a 'deal' done with the owner. There are also MoD camp sites, many largely unused, next to the seaside or on free draining terrain inland, with dubious spec golf courses already on site.
Where there's a will there's usually a way.
atb

Tom_Doak

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Re: Has there ever been a better era for oceanfront golf course sites?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2022, 09:09:51 AM »
There exist 'lessor' seaside courses in the UK which with a bit of will, imagination and business nouse could be upgraded to something much more significant via a 'deal' with the membership/owners. There are also holiday camps/caravan sites in some superb dunes with a golf course of dubious spec on site that could be purchased by a developer or a 'deal' done with the owner. There are also MoD camp sites, many largely unused, next to the seaside or on free draining terrain inland, with dubious spec golf courses already on site.
Where there's a will there's usually a way.


The UK is no longer part of the E.U., but even when it was, they were specifically exempted from two things their European partners had to abide by:  the currency, and the environmental regulations.  The UK has always had its own standard for environmental rules and they insisted on sticking with those at the formation of the E.U.


They are not without rules:  there are Sites of Special Scientific Interest [SSSI's] instead of Special Areas of Conservation [SAC's] which are the designation for most dunes systems in Europe.  But there are quite a few older golf courses in the UK with one or more holes in an SSSI, and at least a couple that have been permitted to build one in recent years.  So, yes, it's much more possible you'll see another true links course in the U.K. than in Ireland.  But Mike Keiser would be the first to tell you it won't be easy to get permission.

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