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Alex Miller

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Augusta National lengthens #13
« on: November 22, 2022, 05:06:48 PM »
https://golf.com/news/augusta-nationals-new-longer-13th-tee/


It's seemingly official, the 13th at ANGC will now play from a new tee significantly further back amongst the trees. My guess is about ~30 yards or so.




Cal Seifert

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2022, 05:28:29 PM »
Not sure how it looks on the ground, but from that drone shot it looks really silly and could be a great example for a presentation on rolling back the ball.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2022, 05:40:29 PM »
Here it is.  This should do for about 5 or so years...until they gotta go back 30 or 40 more!  ;)



Tim_Cronin

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2022, 05:58:56 PM »
The member tee remains where the bottom arrow is.
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Tal Oz

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2022, 08:11:18 PM »
2022 Masters scoring average: 4.87, 6 eagles to 10 doubles or worse
Historical average 4.77, lowest scoring average hole in Masters

It seems to me like the hole was playing as designed quite well and wasn't a total pushover. I'm disappointed to see this new tee instead of ANGC spearheading a roll back, but we shouldn't be surprised given the land acquisition.

Does anyone know why ANGC is so reticent to add a third set of tees? Even before this change the members tees were 1100y+ shorter than the Masters tees with nothing in between. I can only recall in tourney time they use the members tees on #4 one round per year, either Thursday or Friday.

Matthew Rose

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2022, 08:41:54 PM »
I kinda wish the 6900 yard tees that were the Masters tees for most of the 20th century had at least been preserved in some form.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Steve Lapper

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2022, 09:34:32 PM »
Wait until you see ANGC's recent work done to #15....that's even more dramatic and strategically meaningful.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

David_Elvins

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2022, 10:10:11 PM »
2022 Masters scoring average: 4.87, 6 eagles to 10 doubles or worse
Historical average 4.77, lowest scoring average hole in Masters

It seems to me like the hole was playing as designed quite well and wasn't a total pushover. I'm disappointed to see this new tee instead of ANGC spearheading a roll back, but we shouldn't be surprised given the land acquisition.

Does anyone know why ANGC is so reticent to add a third set of tees? Even before this change the members tees were 1100y+ shorter than the Masters tees with nothing in between. I can only recall in tourney time they use the members tees on #4 one round per year, either Thursday or Friday.


In the final round of 88, Sandy Lyle had 150 yards into 13 and from memory the leaders had 185-210 yards into 15.


They were pretty exciting tournaments in that era.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

MClutterbuck

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2022, 08:57:15 PM »
The member tee remains where the bottom arrow is.


Yes, it seems that the Tournament tees only moved back about 1 and a half arrows.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2022, 10:56:15 PM »
Here's what it looked like in 1991: https://www.instagram.com/p/ClWOBcDMm6l/

Matt Kardash

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2022, 05:25:56 PM »
I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green.
I am 40, and when I was in my teens players were consistently going at the green with long irons. If a pro has more than a 7 iron into the green now it is because he hit a bad drive.

It all depends on what The Masters Tournament wants. If they want to preserve the integrity of the hole and what it requires, well, I understand why they want the hole longer. That being said there isn't a single member that is benefiting from this added length. Not my money.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

jeffwarne

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2022, 05:59:54 PM »
I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green.
I am 40, and when I was in my teens players were consistently going at the green with long irons. If a pro has more than a 7 iron into the green now it is because he hit a bad drive.

It all depends on what The Masters Tournament wants. If they want to preserve the integrity of the hole and what it requires, well, I understand why they want the hole longer. That being said there isn't a single member that is benefiting from this added length. Not my money.


Agreed.
The second shot will always be the second shot. The only real way to retain scale would be via equipment rollback or moving the green(along with the tee) and creek back 20-30 yards.
If they keep moving the tee back, eventually some won't reach the corner, and be hitting a hook just to lay up, while the bombers reaching the corner will face the same shot that historically players faced for years from 195-230.
Not really the hole Jones and Mackenzie had in mind.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2022, 07:15:47 PM »
I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green.
I am 40, and when I was in my teens players were consistently going at the green with long irons. If a pro has more than a 7 iron into the green now it is because he hit a bad drive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5_Ld07sMA&t=5755s

184 in 1997, FWIW.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Matt Kardash

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2022, 09:10:01 PM »
OK, you are cherry picking the Tiger Woods who was bombing it 320 yards in 1997. This is the definition of cherry picking.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2022, 09:50:48 PM »
OK, you are cherry picking the Tiger Woods who was bombing it 320 yards in 1997. This is the definition of cherry picking.
Very much NOT the definition, seeing as how the conversation went like this:

You: "I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green."

Me: "Here's showing one of the longest hitters with 184 in, so yeah, I agree that they are delusional if they think people regularly had 150 in."

You again: "That's cherry picking!"

No, it's the opposite. I was backing your point.

Also: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.y1997.html


Edit because I just realized "other guy" was still you.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 09:42:55 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Matt Kardash

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2022, 10:16:09 PM »
OK, you are cherry picking the Tiger Woods who was bombing it 320 yards in 1997. This is the definition of cherry picking.
Very much NOT the definition, seeing as how the conversation went like this:

Other Guy: "I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green."

Me: "Here's showing one of the longest hitters with 184 in, so yeah, they are delusional if they think they had 150 in."

You: "That's cherry picking!"

No, it's the opposite. I was backing his point.

Also: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.101.y1997.html
I am just going to put this here: 323 yards at the 1997 Masters
https://www.sportsnet.ca/golf/20-awesome-facts-tiger-woods-epic-1997-masters-win/
Everyone knows Tiger could hit the ball 320 at will when he wanted to back in those days. Augusta was the ideal course for him to let it rip. Remember, this was pre Tiger-proofing.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2022, 10:22:53 PM »
I am just going to put this here: 323 yards at the 1997 Masters
https://www.sportsnet.ca/golf/20-awesome-facts-tiger-woods-epic-1997-masters-win/
Everyone knows Tiger could hit the ball 320 at will when he wanted to back in those days. Augusta was the ideal course for him to let it rip. Remember, this was pre Tiger-proofing.
I'm not sure you're reading me right. Even Tiger didn't have 150 yards in in 1997, so yeah, I agree with you the other guy: those people who remember that have it wrong. I'll leave it at that.


(Edit is the struck part. Just realized today you were the "other guy." Duh me.)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 10:29:56 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

David_Elvins

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2022, 11:32:20 PM »
I am just going to put this here: 323 yards at the 1997 Masters
https://www.sportsnet.ca/golf/20-awesome-facts-tiger-woods-epic-1997-masters-win/
Everyone knows Tiger could hit the ball 320 at will when he wanted to back in those days. Augusta was the ideal course for him to let it rip. Remember, this was pre Tiger-proofing.
I'm not sure you're reading me right. Even Tiger didn't have 150 yards in in 1997, so yeah, I agree with the other guy: those people who remember that have it wrong. I'll leave it at that.


Erik,


The footage of the 1988 Masters is available here.  [size=78%]https://youtu.be/Xh5oMzY2x_A [/size]


They talk at length about Lyles yardage into 13 at the 1hr27min mark.  For context, in the group before, Langer had 175 yards in.


This would be an excellent chance to show that you can give a simple, unqualified apology.

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Amol Yajnik

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2022, 09:34:31 AM »
https://sports.yahoo.com/reviews-pga-tour-pros-played-193206442.html


Kevin Kisner (not a long hitter) had 210 for his second shot after playing the new tee recently. The large majority of the field will still go for it in 2.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2022, 09:47:44 AM »
They talk at length about Lyles yardage into 13 at the 1hr27min mark.  For context, in the group before, Langer had 175 yards in.

This would be an excellent chance to show that you can give a simple, unqualified apology.
Apologize for what, exactly? I'll say it again in plain language, and expand even though I thought what I said before was obvious:

Matt Kardash: "I love when people are delusional and say the hole has not been changed that much and that back in the day people had 150 in the green."

Me: "I agree they're delusional. Tiger set the world on fire in 1997, and even he had 184 in on Sunday. Here's a video showing that. Because even now players rarely have 150 yards in, and they didn't often have 150 yards in "back in the day." The Tiger video shows that even he had 184 in."

So first I'm accused of "cherry picking" and then you come in with a video from 1988 (when the hole was 465?) showing that Sandy Lyle had maybe 150 yards in? And demand an apology? For what, exactly? I'm not even making a point here - I'm agreeing with another poster that players of ANY era but especially "back in the day" didn't often have 150 yards in to #13.

That's it.

I apologize if my first post was unclear I thought that the nature of a post showing "even Tiger had 184 in to #13 back in 1997" was obvious but I'd think one might simply ask for a clarification in that case.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 09:55:05 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Eric LeFante

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2022, 10:54:17 AM »
Wait until you see ANGC's recent work done to #15....that's even more dramatic and strategically meaningful.


I know it was lengthened last year. What was done this year?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 10:56:19 AM by Eric LeFante »

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2022, 11:12:14 AM »
FWIW, Tiger hit fairway wood of the 13th tee in 1997.

Eric LeFante

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2022, 12:26:20 PM »
https://sports.yahoo.com/reviews-pga-tour-pros-played-193206442.html


Kevin Kisner (not a long hitter) had 210 for his second shot after playing the new tee recently. The large majority of the field will still go for it in 2.


As many have previously pointed out, it's very hard to understand why Augusta gets rid of old tees and limits its options. Based on this article I could see players still having mid irons into this hole under warm and firm conditions. Conversely, cool soft conditions could mean a lot of lay ups. They should have given themselves the option to go further back and kept the old tee. Right now, the Masters can only play from this new tee.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2022, 01:33:36 PM »
As many have previously pointed out, it's very hard to understand why Augusta gets rid of old tees and limits its options. Based on this article I could see players still having mid irons into this hole under warm and firm conditions. Conversely, cool soft conditions could mean a lot of lay ups. They should have given themselves the option to go further back and kept the old tee. Right now, the Masters can only play from this new tee.
I feel like they think "extra teeing areas scattered about" is an eyesore or something. The closest you'll get is a "longer" tee box so they have some flexibility.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Augusta National lengthens #13
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2022, 01:58:55 PM »
Limit its Options? that sounds like if player's can't reach the green in 2 the hole is a failure.

Based on some of the pictures posted by Eureka Earth, The best I can tell, the hole has only been lengthened by ~18 yards, with only ~15 yards separating the back of the old tee with the front of the new tee. So, we're looking at the hole being listed at something like 530 yards on the card this year.

Should we really complain that players "may" not be able to reach a 530 yard par 5 in two? Many recent US Opens have played par 4's longer than 530 yards.

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