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Kalen Braley

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #100 on: November 16, 2022, 11:00:55 AM »
Just to be clear,

I'm advocating that the DS be used as a template to establish a more effective system of ranking/rating/evaluating courses and putting them in a list....not that Tom's personal ratings be the only ones on the list.  I'm guessing even he wouldn't advocate that! ;D

James Brown

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #101 on: November 18, 2022, 10:52:13 AM »
I think overrated is certainly not the proper description that comes to mind on any of Bandon's courses. It is like Miss Universe, whoever finishes 10th will still induce whiplash. I think let's celebrate it as opposed to really waste effort arguing if it is #50 and should be #85.  It is a great course. As we don't have old historical links courses like the UK then we can create them better late than never.


Jeff


Have you played the Streamsong and Sand Valley layouts? I'm keen how you (or anyone else) views BD in relation to them?
I have played SV but not SS. My 2 cents, is that SV/MD are much grander and feeling of seclusion with some trees. The greens at BD I think are better than either layout at SV. The width off the tees for SV/MD make it easier off the tee. Of course with BD being a links and exposed to weather even 15-20 mph winds really make it difficult for us amateurs.

Separate from the golf, the views at BD really are great and adds to your day regardless of what you shot.


Last year, got to Sand Valley for the first time and I am so grateful to have had the chance to see Cabot as well and I have been to Streamsong and Bandon many times. 


Bandon is the only place in that I dream about and that still gives me goosebumps when I book a trip or drive up to the lodge.  And walking onto the 16th green at Bandon Dunes at golden hour on the day I get there knocks some years off every time. Itís not underrated, itís Dream Golf.  Itís not all about the shots, a whole lot of it is about the walking. 

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2022, 11:16:31 AM »
Bandon is a marvel. Keiser went against convention and the advice of people "in the know." He built a walking-only resort three hours from an airport. It took me three flights to get there on Delta. He hired an unknown to design the course. He could have built a private club that folks would have spent many $s to join. That is visionary thinking that few have or would try.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

David_Tepper

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #103 on: November 24, 2022, 06:25:34 PM »
The new Top 100 rankings have Bandon Dunes at #73 in the world, ahead of Bandon Trails at #75.

https://www.top100golfcourses.com/top-100-golf-courses-of-the-world?page=10

David Ober

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2022, 08:45:02 AM »
No, it's the course I most look forward to playing at the Resort.


Not even a tiny bit overrated.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2022, 09:39:31 PM »
Is Bandon Dunes (the resort i.e. all 5 courses) overrated?


No, I think the resort as a whole is fantastic. It is probably the best place that I have been where you get such great golf courses without ever having to leave the resort.

I think some missed my OP - I was referring to the BD course not the resort. Reading through the thread its clear that I am not alone with those thoughts.


I believe every course that has opened since it more than outshines it.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2022, 04:33:50 PM »
Is Bandon Dunes (the resort i.e. all 5 courses) overrated?


No, I think the resort as a whole is fantastic. It is probably the best place that I have been where you get such great golf courses without ever having to leave the resort.

I think some missed my OP - I was referring to the BD course not the resort. Reading through the thread its clear that I am not alone with those thoughts.


I believe every course that has opened since it more than outshines it.


As someone who hears guest rankings of the courses on a frequent basis, BD is generally closer to the top of those lists than the bottom. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2022, 05:25:16 PM »
Sven,


We were sorry to miss you on our visit a few months ago. Here is my take in a slightly different form from earlier postings in this thread:

Given the site, BT is simply brilliant. Regardless of the site, it is one of the best courses I have played.

Given the site, PD is brilliant. My guess is that most golfers do not appreciate how few holes actually are on the ocean. Nor that several of the best holes are not on the ocean.

Given the site, OM is impressive because of the homage mandate.

Given the site, Sheep Ranch is enjoyable and scenic.

Given the site, BD is very good but not great.


Ira



« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 05:29:04 PM by Ira Fishman »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #108 on: December 05, 2022, 06:13:26 PM »
Ira:


The major knock on Trails is that the course doesnít really change depending on where the pins are located.  There are very few to no instances of adjusting your line off the tee to create a better angle.  You get that in spades at Old Mac and Bandon.


The biggest challenge at Trails is accepting where the fat part of the fairway actually lies without succumbing to C&Cís visual tricks.


Not necessarily a knock on the course, but once you unlock the puzzle box of space the course gets way easier.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2022, 07:07:59 PM »
Sven,


I understand your point, but the variety of the holes and the use of the different landforms (plus the visual trickery) is what makes BT so compelling. And even if a good player finds the fat part off the tee, they still need accuracy and distance control for the approach.


Regarding BD, I appreciated it more on our second visit, but there are a few weaker holes and the sum is not greater than the parts. Perhaps my biggest hang up is that the ocean is used more visually than strategically; hence, my comment regarding given the site.


You know the courses far better than I, but this thread has made me think about the question quite a bit.


The resort clearly is unmatched for the quality of the golf. However, that fact does not lead to the conclusion that all of the courses do not warrant some careful analysis about their relative quality. For example, we played Yale a month before our trip to Bandon. It is clearly better than BD, OM, and SR by a fair measure.


Ira
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 07:11:42 PM by Ira Fishman »

Max Prokopy

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #110 on: December 05, 2022, 08:15:52 PM »
Wait so its not obviously implicit that a 10 is ranked higher than a 7?  I mean the descriptions pretty well do that

7 - An excellent course if within 100 miles, but not necessarily anything unique.
vs
10 - Nearly perfect, you would miss something if you missed just one hole.


That's why I've always really liked it as a hybrid rating system because its a good way to apply a relative rating, without needing to split hairs why a DS 10 like Pine valley is better than CPC, or to limit oneself to top 50, 100, or whatever.

Kalen-My point was that that is nothing to differentiate all the 7ís as an example. Like Sean Iím good with that.

Yes, I can certainly agree on that point, I'd think its better to just list them

If GD or Golf Magazine or Golf Week wanted to avoid controversy and provide a more honest assessment of courses they would not try differentiate two courses with same DS rating. I don't know how well received Michelin is, but getting a 1, 2, or 3 star rating seems to work well enough.


I quite agree with you, and have full confidence you understand that "controversy" is part of the point for these publications.  The diehards, like GCA folks, will want something more along the lines of the lists you suggest.  Nevertheless I'll confess to looking up some of the ratings before visiting new territory, as it's a reasonable starting point.


In my lone trip to Bandon I would put PD at the top overall.  Kidd certainly seemed to learn from his work (errors) at BD, as I truly enjoyed what he accomplished at Mammoth Dunes. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2022, 11:57:26 AM »
Regarding BD, I appreciated it more on our second visit, but there are a few weaker holes and the sum is not greater than the parts.


If we're going to apply this kind of reasoning, let's at least be consistent and note that you could say the same thing about Trails.


Like PD, BD has a number of crescendos throughout the round.  Not sure if you can say the same about Trails.  There is no "16th Hole" moment at Trails, which might be the defining memory for most guests.


We're splitting hairs here, especially if we're going to be trying to compare five links courses to a parkland course in Connecticut (your opinion of it being clearly better than 3 of the resort courses by a fair measure seems a bit hyperbolic).


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2022, 12:24:31 PM »
Since when are we not supposed to compare courses built on different terrains? My statement about Yale is my well considered opinion (which is all it can be). We played it in close proximity to Bandon, and the more I reflect upon it, the more I appreciate it. In fact, it not being on the ocean probably would unfairly prejudice some people against it. And we played Yale the day after we played Sleepy Hollow which is no slouch in terms of architecture or views.


The great thing about subjective analysis is that we can agree to disagree.


Ira

Bob_Garvelink

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2022, 09:44:40 AM »
Bandon Dunes is one of the best golf courses in the world.  I was lucky enough to go to Bandon two years ago for the first time with a group of 16 guys and we played 261 holes of golf over a 7 day period.


We did a silent vote and our group ranked the courses as follows:


1.  Pacific Dunes
2.  Bandon Dunes (lost by 1 vote)
3. Bandon Trails
4. Sheep Ranch
5. Old Mac


The funny thing is we had guys that have played courses like Sand Valley, Whistling Straits, Streamsong, Kingsley, Dunes Club and the list goes on an on and we all agreed that the resort has the 5 best courses that everyone has ever played. 


Bandon Dunes was an amazing course and I will never forget the first time I played #4 and saw the reveal.  I feel that #16 is the most visually stunning hole at the resort and I cannot understand how anyone could argue that BD is overrated.


I have honestly been thinking long and hard about retiring in the next few years early and moving to Bandon and work there (as long as I can get a free round of golf every now and then :)  I dont care if I have to water the plants, clean bathrooms, or take out the trash....I just want to play world class golf as much as possible and Bandon Dunes is at the top of my personal list
"Pure Michigan"

Tom_Doak

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2022, 10:12:06 AM »

Bandon Dunes was an amazing course and I will never forget the first time I played #4 and saw the reveal.  I feel that #16 is the most visually stunning hole at the resort and I cannot understand how anyone could argue that BD is overrated.



Okay, just to be Devil's Advocate, I"ll be that guy.


Here's the argument:  this thread is now 4 1/2 pages long and there are only two or three holes that anyone has singled out as being great holes.  And even on those two, just above, you only mentioned the visuals of them, instead of whether they were really great holes to play.


I don't have any question that lots of people love the course . . . it is a great setting for golf, and all of the courses at Bandon get a lot of extra points for that.  But if great courses are full of great holes, and everybody keeps coming back to the same two or three holes, is it really that great?


And if fans of the course now fall back and tell us what a great hole the 5th is or the 11th or whatever, at least then we could talk about whether it's a great course instead of the popularity contest.

Mike Wagner

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #115 on: December 07, 2022, 12:29:52 PM »

Bandon Dunes was an amazing course and I will never forget the first time I played #4 and saw the reveal.  I feel that #16 is the most visually stunning hole at the resort and I cannot understand how anyone could argue that BD is overrated.



Okay, just to be Devil's Advocate, I"ll be that guy.


Here's the argument:  this thread is now 4 1/2 pages long and there are only two or three holes that anyone has singled out as being great holes.  And even on those two, just above, you only mentioned the visuals of them, instead of whether they were really great holes to play.


I don't have any question that lots of people love the course . . . it is a great setting for golf, and all of the courses at Bandon get a lot of extra points for that.  But if great courses are full of great holes, and everybody keeps coming back to the same two or three holes, is it really that great?


And if fans of the course now fall back and tell us what a great hole the 5th is or the 11th or whatever, at least then we could talk about whether it's a great course instead of the popularity contest.


Fully recognizing the "devil's advocate" ;) ... it's the same question (for some) that's been repeated thousands of times regarding Pebble.


I have no idea how someone would not consider Bandon great. They're ALL great .. and that may actually be why these things are dissected so much. All the courses are SO good in one spot, it's simply hard to believe.




Tom_Doak

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2022, 01:22:10 PM »


Fully recognizing the "devil's advocate" ;) ... it's the same question (for some) that's been repeated thousands of times regarding Pebble.



Not really.  Pebble Beach has six holes that are always in the discussion of the best holes on the planet.  Thatís what keeps its ranking so high, even if some of the inland holes are not special.  The argument there is whether Pebble is a 10 or a 9.





Ira Fishman

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2022, 01:57:54 PM »
I have been in the BD the course is overrated camp from the beginning of the thread, but because my wife is putting ďOften Wrong, Never in DoubtĒ on my tombstone, I did another check in response to Doakís question about great holes. Conclusion: 5 is a great hole, and I could put 14 in the same category. 7 is borderline great. I am a fan of 10, but that would not be a consensus pick for great. 4 and 12 are gorgeous but I found them to be more on the eye candy side. I am not a long hitter, but could see someone who is considering 16 to be great.


So after reflection, I remain not in doubt of my position on BD the course being overrated, which is a relative term (I listed above several courses that I think are better). Btw, I know it is a bit blasphemous, but I think all of the courses except for BT are ranked too high to one degree or another (as noted in my exchange with Sven). It is the best collection of courses in the US and maybe the world, but that does not mean everyone of them deserves the ranking they traditionally receive.


Ira
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 02:00:14 PM by Ira Fishman »

Joe Zucker

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2022, 02:22:38 PM »
This is a really interesting thread to read as someone who personally ranks Bandon Dunes as the top course at the resort.  I'd always known and appreciated that opinions were varied, as all the courses are excellent, so I'm a bit surprised to see a decent consensus of like minded (and respected) people come to a pretty different conclusion than me.


On deeper reflection, I can be persuaded that Pacific has better holes and there may not be enough "great" holes on Bandon to justify a 1st place ranking at the resort.  All that being said, Bandon Dunes is still my favorite course to play of the 4 (having not seen the new Sheep Ranch). And I'm not 100% sure why that is? The setting and views at Pacific are equal, but there is something about Bandon that I like more.  I think it might be that it is easier and wider when conditions are tough.  Pacific is fantastic, but I think it's a hard course.


Bandon Dunes is greater than its individual features and draws out the fun of the game for me.  As someone who spends their working life in data, I can see how it would be frustrating to rate a course 1st and not be able to justify it with concrete reasons.  But golf courses are half art and I like the art Kidd made more than the others.

Joe Hancock

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2022, 05:25:54 PM »
While I donít have the same amount of energy in the ground as Tom Doak at Bandon Resort, I have spent quite a bit of time working on the bunkers at Bandon Dunes a few years ago, so I have some bias.


Hereís a couple of my observations about Bandon Dunes, the course; It is a better golf course than the shaping belies. And I think that is one of the big factors that masks its presence as a course. Thereís a lot of tees, specifically, that look bad in the landscape. And, there are some mounds that have a certain regular, negative look. But, the course is very fun to play, having plenty of challenge, variety in scenery and fun, interesting choices to be made.


For the record, my favorite course at the resort is Old Mac, and also for the record, 7 on Old Mac is one of my least favorite holes at the resort.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Max Prokopy

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #120 on: December 07, 2022, 08:54:07 PM »

 Thereís a lot of tees, specifically, that look bad in the landscape. And, there are some mounds that have a certain regular, negative look. But, the course is very fun to play, having plenty of challenge, variety in scenery and fun, interesting choices to be made.



I fully agree with these observations. The mounding did feel contrived in places. While it is a very fair course, a touch more randomness could do the trick. I personally think Kidd found that right mix at Mammoth Dunes.

William_G

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #121 on: December 07, 2022, 11:27:37 PM »
this is the dumbest discussion I've read on this site  ::) ::) ::)


for Ira to bring up Yale is just ridiculous, and I love Yale, not an apples to apples gig, more like Syrah to Chardonnay, jeez


Bandon Dunes is not overrated
 ??? ??? ??? ???



It's all about the golf!

Kalen Braley

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #122 on: December 08, 2022, 01:20:00 PM »
this is the dumbest discussion I've read on this site  ::) ::) ::)

for Ira to bring up Yale is just ridiculous, and I love Yale, not an apples to apples gig, more like Syrah to Chardonnay, jeez

Bandon Dunes is not overrated
 ??? ??? ??? ???


William,

That's funny you mention wine, as I recently re-watched one of my favorite movies Sideways.  It reminded me of this convo, where you have hardcore aficionados who like to haggle and re-hash every last detail and have strong and specific preferences, vs most people who just go to the store and grab a bottle off the shelf and think "this will do"

Got me wondering if Bandon Dunes is the Frass Canyon of the resort? Aka wine for the masses.  ;D

JLahrman

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Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2022, 03:20:21 PM »
William,

That's funny you mention wine, as I recently re-watched one of my favorite movies Sideways.  It reminded me of this convo, where you have hardcore aficionados who like to haggle and re-hash every last detail and have strong and specific preferences, vs most people who just go to the store and grab a bottle off the shelf and think "this will do"

Got me wondering if Bandon Dunes is the Frass Canyon of the resort? Aka wine for the masses.  ;D


Funny you just mentioned Sideways, which is a hilarious movie in which there is something unethical happening in every scene. We start out with Paul Giamatti's character completing a crossword puzzle while driving I-5 from San Diego to Los Angeles, and it gets worse from there.


But anyway, I sent a message to a GCAer who posted on this thread in support of Bandon Dunes, and told him that I agree but it seems that anyone who loves Bandon Dunes has been deemed a Merlot drinker. I hope he gets the reference. PS I buy wine based on the picture on the label, and when $200 wine tastes 10 times better than a $20 bottle I will gladly splurge.

Bob_Garvelink

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Bandon Dunes overrated?
« Reply #124 on: December 12, 2022, 03:24:20 PM »
All this Bandon talk got me thinking.....I should prob book my 2nd trip and decided to go over Thanksgiving.


Day 1 - Pac Dunes and Bandon Trails


Day 2 Bandon Dunes and Pac Dunes


Day 3 Sheep Ranch and Pac Dunes


I will report back on my findings :)
"Pure Michigan"

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