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Ira Fishman

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US Architects Trips to UK&I
« on: November 08, 2022, 04:52:24 PM »
The very interesting tread about Colt’s trips to the US prompted a question. I know that several Golden Age US architects visited UK&I, that Mr. Dye did as well, that Mr. Crenshaw did at least as a player, and that Doak (he posts too often to use Mr.), but I am curious if the dominant post-WWII architects—Jones Sr, Wilson, Lee, et.al—made overseas journeys.


Thanks.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2022, 05:02:20 PM »
The very interesting tread about Colt’s trips to the US prompted a question. I know that several Golden Age US architects visited UK&I, that Mr. Dye did as well, that Mr. Crenshaw did at least as a player, and that Doak (he posts too often to use Mr.), but I am curious if the dominant post-WWII architects—Jones Sr, Wilson, Lee, et.al—made overseas journeys.


Thanks.


I’d be absolutely amazed if they didn’t. I mean, there are more RTJ sr courses in Europe than courses by almost any other architect.


Less sure about how much Wilson travelled given he has no (?) courses over this neck of the woods.

Ira Fishman

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2022, 05:18:25 PM »
Yes, but did he travel to study before he started working?

Mark_Fine

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2022, 05:31:21 PM »
Ira,
The only one I know for sure who did not travel across the pond is William Flynn. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2022, 06:30:20 PM »
Ira,
The only one I know for sure who did not travel across the pond is William Flynn.


Also Seth Raynor.


And for that matter, Bill Coore hadn't been over there until a few years ago . . . well after he and Ben built Sand Hills.




Tom_Doak

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2022, 06:35:13 PM »
The very interesting tread about Colt’s trips to the US prompted a question. I know that several Golden Age US architects visited UK&I, that Mr. Dye did as well, that Mr. Crenshaw did at least as a player, and that Doak (he posts too often to use Mr.), but I am curious if the dominant post-WWII architects—Jones Sr, Wilson, Lee, et.al—made overseas journeys.



Ira:


I don't know details about Dick Wilson, but I know that when I started doing the GOLF Magazine top 100 voting back in the 80's, Pete Dye and Robert Trent Jones were two of the panelists who had seen the most courses.


I don't believe Mr. Jones went over there in his early years, since they coincided with the Depression.  I never thought to ask him when his first trip there was.  In general, he did not make reference to those courses with the same reverence or frequency that Pete Dye did; Mr. Jones spoke more about the American classics.


Among the more modern era, Tom Fazio is another who I assume has seen a fair number of courses in the UK, but he was never part of the magazine panel, so I don't know details.  He certainly does NOT refer to the great links much when discussing his own work.  Jack Nicklaus, on the other hand, has played over there regularly since 1959, and we did find some common ground at Sebonack talking about features of The Old Course and a couple of other links.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2022, 08:53:03 PM »
I would love to have been the keen-eared observer for what led up to those moments of common ground at Sebonack. If you gave me a chance to play Sebonack or Shinnecock (I've played neither) I believe that I would opt for Sebonack first. This might put me in a minority, but Sebonack is a course that should not exist as it does. Somehow, it came (just like Christmas in Whoville.)
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Ira Fishman

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2022, 09:03:41 PM »
The very interesting tread about Colt’s trips to the US prompted a question. I know that several Golden Age US architects visited UK&I, that Mr. Dye did as well, that Mr. Crenshaw did at least as a player, and that Doak (he posts too often to use Mr.), but I am curious if the dominant post-WWII architects—Jones Sr, Wilson, Lee, et.al—made overseas journeys.



Ira:


I don't know details about Dick Wilson, but I know that when I started doing the GOLF Magazine top 100 voting back in the 80's, Pete Dye and Robert Trent Jones were two of the panelists who had seen the most courses.


I don't believe Mr. Jones went over there in his early years, since they coincided with the Depression.  I never thought to ask him when his first trip there was.  In general, he did not make reference to those courses with the same reverence or frequency that Pete Dye did; Mr. Jones spoke more about the American classics.


Among the more modern era, Tom Fazio is another who I assume has seen a fair number of courses in the UK, but he was never part of the magazine panel, so I don't know details.  He certainly does NOT refer to the great links much when discussing his own work.  Jack Nicklaus, on the other hand, has played over there regularly since 1959, and we did find some common ground at Sebonack talking about features of The Old Course and a couple of other links.


Tom,


Thanks for the detailed response. I wonder if the fact that those you mention did not refer to UK&I courses was a conscious decision to try to create something different and/or a reflection of post WWII American culture writ large.


Ira

Adam Lawrence

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2022, 03:55:11 AM »
We should remember that Jones was born in England and his parents emigrated to America when he was six. I don’t know their circumstances, but it isn’t too difficult to posit that his childhood years over here were quite difficult, and he thus didn’t have the best of memories of the UK. Coming back as a successful, powerful American golf designer was doubtless better than trying to get over here as a young man (Jones wasn’t well off at all at that time) would have been.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

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Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Thomas Dai

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2022, 04:11:36 AM »
Would the Aussie born, US domiciled Walter Travis, 1904 British Amateur Champion count?
Atb

Sean_A

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2022, 04:33:58 AM »
Would the Aussie born, US domiciled Walter Travis, 1904 British Amateur Champion count?
Atb

Travis visited the UK in 1901 as well. He thought Huntercombe was the best laid out course he had seen anywhere to that date.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 05:02:25 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022:

Michael Moore

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2022, 09:32:50 AM »
I recently talked to an architect from the UK whose architecture epiphany came on a trip to the United States.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Niall C

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2022, 04:36:06 PM »
Emmet toured about in 1899. No idea if it was a fact finding mission or just a visit to play golf but he did play with Willie Fernie at Troon, a couple of years after Fernie had made changes to the course. Did they talk architecture ? Who knows.


On a similar vein, John Low had a number of holidays in Dornoch in the late 1890's when Donald Ross was still the professional and they played together a number of times. Did Low impart any words of wisdom ? Again, who knows.


Niall   

Jeff Schley

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2022, 03:27:47 PM »
A point to note is the substantial investment of time and money it took to make the transatlantic journey.  In 1900 it was roughly 5-6 days each way. Chart showing the evolution of time needed for the journey over time. The Mackenzie trip to Australia was said to be 35 plus days each way via the Suez Canal.


"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

John Challenger

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2022, 07:17:02 AM »
Love this from Pete Dye's book, " Bury Me in a Pot Bunker."

"After my first qualifying round in the 1963 British Amateur Championship, I brashly told an astonished Scottish reporter that the Old Course at St. Andrews was a goat ranch, and if I played it a thousand times, it would still be a goat ranch! Three days and seven rounds later, I realized it was one of the greatest golf courses in the world. Standing on the first tee at the Old Course day after day marked the turning point in my golf course design career....Aware of our budding career as golf course designers, Mr. Tufts believed Alice and I would "broaden our scope" through exposure to the legendary courses....The introduction to Scotland preceded a whirlwind tour of more than thirty courses in the British Isles. Thirsty for new concepts, Alice and I studied and photographed as we played and began a library of ideas and concepts for future designs....five of them presented spectacular images that would substantially influence the design of every single golf course we would build in the future."

It really seems to have been Mr. Tufts who encouraged and helped bring the Dyes to the British Isles for inspiration. I wonder if he brought other young, budding architects there too?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2022, 06:44:30 AM by John Challenger »

Niall C

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2022, 03:56:50 PM »
It has been a while since I read the book, but that excerpt raises the question for me, what 5 courses provided the influence for future designs ?


Niall

John Challenger

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2022, 05:50:52 PM »
The five courses were Turnberry, Prestwick, Carnoustie, Royal Dornoch, and St. Andrews. He also mentions Muirfield, Western Gailes, Ayr, Troon, Nairn, Gullane, North Berwick, Portmarnock and Portrush

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2022, 07:24:46 PM »
The five courses were Turnberry, Prestwick, Carnoustie, Royal Dornoch, and St. Andrews. He also mentions Muirfield, Western Gailes, Ayr, Troon, Nairn, Gullane, North Berwick, Portmarnock and Portrush


Ayr?

Tom_Doak

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2022, 09:47:45 AM »
The five courses were Turnberry, Prestwick, Carnoustie, Royal Dornoch, and St. Andrews. He also mentions Muirfield, Western Gailes, Ayr, Troon, Nairn, Gullane, North Berwick, Portmarnock and Portrush


Ayr?


I wondered about that one, too.  Maybe Prestwick St. Nicholas?


I know that's not the complete list of what Pete and Alice saw on their 1963 trip.  When I got back from my trip he started grilling me about where I had been, and I had seen pretty much everything they did [and then some], but then he said, "I bet you didn't play Muir of Ord!"  Alas, I had not.  They stopped there on the way to Dornoch.  Pete was so taken with the name of the place, that the earliest plan for Crooked Stick is labeled with the name "Muir of Golf".

Niall C

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2022, 09:56:38 AM »
The five courses were Turnberry, Prestwick, Carnoustie, Royal Dornoch, and St. Andrews. He also mentions Muirfield, Western Gailes, Ayr, Troon, Nairn, Gullane, North Berwick, Portmarnock and Portrush


Ayr?


I can only imagine he looked at Belleisle and Seafield. If he had looked at Prestwick St Nich's I can't imagine he'd have referred to it as Ayr. After all the clue is in the name of the club.


Niall

John Challenger

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2022, 09:38:07 AM »
Pete says, "our whirlwind tour of more than thirty courses in the British Isles."

Interestingly, Alister MacKenzie's book, The Spirit of St. Andrews, written in 1934 and then lost for 60 years, was published in 1995, in the year after Pete Dye's book, "Bury Me in a Pot Bunker" was first published in 1994.

And yet their experiences were similar when they began to look more closely at St. Andrews. Pete was quick to declare it a goat ranch and Alister to scoff at its tradition.

MacKenzie say, "I am by nature a revolutionary, and only too apt to scoff at tradition. Before visiting St. Andrews I had what were considered revolutionary ideas regarding golf courses. To my astonishment, when I inspected the Old Course I found my ideals in actual practice. I have been a staunch supporter of the Old Course ever since..."

Later, MacKenzie "was employed by the club to make a plan of the Old Course....It took me a full year to complete the task, notwithstanding the fact that I thought I knew the course thoroughly. In actual fact I found that my knowledge was of the slightest, and the subtleties which I discovered have always been a source of amazement to me."


Another U.S. architect who made the trip to the British Isles was Robert Hunter. According to Cutten, "In 1912, Hunter was on family trip to Britain when he met Harry Colt; who, in turn, introduced him to Alister MacKenzie. On the same trip, Robert Hunter invested six important months in studying the great courses of the British Isles." In 1926, he published The Links, one of the greatest books of all time on golf design.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 08:41:01 AM by John Challenger »

Jeffrey Stein

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2022, 08:39:14 PM »
Ira,


I'm certainly not a "dominant" architect, but now I can say that I will also be making the same trip as some of the great US architects who have come before me.  I was recently awarded a fellowship to study the great courses of Scotland by The World 100 Group.  Needless to say, I'm beyond thrilled to spend quality time with the Old Course and many of the others classics.




Below is the press release from the ASGCA:


"
Unique scholarship to study great courses of Scotland
[/size][/color]
awarded by World 100 Club
[/size]
[/size][/color]New York golf course architect to tour the path set by Charles Blair Macdonald[/size]
[/size][/color] [/size]
[/size][/color]BROOKFIELD, Wis. – Jeff Stein, a golf course architect from Port Chester, New York, is the recipient of the first “World 100 Club” scholarship. Stein will travel in Spring 2023 to study the great golf courses of Scotland, recreating the trip made by Charles Blair Macdonald in the late 1800s.[/size][/color] [/size][/color]World 100, a private international golfing society founded with the goal of playing each of the World's Top 100 courses, partnered with the American Society of Golf Course Architects (ASGCA) to create and fund an annual fellowship for a golf course architect early in his/her career.[/size][/color] [/size][/color]The [/size][/color]World 100 Club[/size][/url][/color] developed the program to support the architecture profession by recreating McDonald's famous Scotland trip that have inspired the likes of Alister Mackenzie, Henry Colt, Pete Dye, ASGCA Fellow, and so many others.[/size][/color] [/size][/color]Working with ASGCA staff, World 100 Club members developed the application, which was completed by a dozen qualified and passionate young professionals. The list was narrowed to three finalists. Stein, an ASGCA Tartan Program participant, was selected following a formal interview, in an announcement made by David Wecker of World 100.[/size][/color] [/size][/color]The fellowship will provide Stein airfare, lodging for three weeks in and around St. Andrews, and a stipend for meals and local travel. Meetings with club historians, superintendents, the R&A, and golf architects working in Scotland will be arranged. Upon return, Stein will present a summary of what was learned. Alister Mackenzie, who remarked after a year of studying the Old Course, that “I thought I knew the course thoroughly…I found my knowledge was of the slightest, and the subtleties which I discovered have always been a source of amazement to me.”  [/size][/color][/size]
I love the smell of hydroseed in the morning.
www.steingolf.com

Jeff Schley

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2022, 05:10:38 AM »
Congrats Jeffrey on the award and upcoming experience. Opportunties such as this will provide you and others in the future a special time which will impact the future projects all will complete in the future.
Please post your itinerary once set as I know many of us would like to cross paths with you, perhaps a GCA outing with you somewhere?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tom_Doak

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2022, 07:38:49 AM »
Congrats Jeffrey on the award and upcoming experience. Opportunties such as this will provide you and others in the future a special time which will impact the future projects all will complete in the future.
Please post your itinerary once set as I know many of us would like to cross paths with you, perhaps a GCA outing with you somewhere?


Seconded - and see my note in your inbox.


By coincidence, I happened to be reading Phil Young's biography of A.W. Tillinghast last night.  I knew that Tillie made several trips to Scotland between 1896 and 1901 -- basing himself mostly in St. Andrews, and playing golf with legends like Andrew Kirkaldy and Freddy Tait, and hanging out as much as he could with Old Tom Morris.  But I was surprised to see that after 1901, which was still well before he started building golf courses, he never went back.


But I can certainly understand.  It's good to take advantage whenever you have the time for it, because you never know whether you'll have another opportunity.

Ira Fishman

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Re: US Architects Trips to UK&I
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2022, 08:13:27 AM »
Congrats Jeffrey on the award and upcoming experience. Opportunties such as this will provide you and others in the future a special time which will impact the future projects all will complete in the future.
Please post your itinerary once set as I know many of us would like to cross paths with you, perhaps a GCA outing with you somewhere?


A second seconded. Congrats and enjoy.


Ira

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