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Tom_Doak

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2022, 08:01:53 AM »
Well there appears to be one huge error on the regional lists:


Salem Golf Club, North Salem, NY


I don't know anything about this course.  But I suspect the Salem that people voted for was the perennial top-100 contender on the north side of Boston.




I only noticed this error because in looking through Michael Chadwick's pretend list of courses 101-200, it seemed like the northeast was under-represented . . . I kept thinking there were plenty of courses around Boston and Philadelphia that I would rate higher than half the courses listed.  In fact, I suspect many of them DID finish higher, but if you only take 50 from each region, that's what Michael's list on the last page gives you.

Michael Chadwick

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2022, 09:30:03 AM »
Well there appears to be one huge error on the regional lists:


Salem Golf Club, North Salem, NY


I don't know anything about this course.  But I suspect the Salem that people voted for was the perennial top-100 contender on the north side of Boston.




I only noticed this error because in looking through Michael Chadwick's pretend list of courses 101-200, it seemed like the northeast was under-represented . . . I kept thinking there were plenty of courses around Boston and Philadelphia that I would rate higher than half the courses listed.  In fact, I suspect many of them DID finish higher, but if you only take 50 from each region, that's what Michael's list on the last page gives you.


That's an important clarification I didn't make on the regionally aggregated list, so thank you Tom. An official 101-200 would obviously not have regional capacity limits, and you're right--more entrants would likely come out of the northeast and midwest at the expense of the courses appearing towards the back end of the southeast and west regional lists.


« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 09:33:37 AM by Michael Chadwick »
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Mark McKeever

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2022, 11:11:06 AM »
Where's Philly Cricket?   ???
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Steve Lang

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2022, 11:17:43 AM »
Michael C,


I've never ever seen or heard Dallas, TX mentioned as being "Mid-West"... but we don't get out and about as much any more, but if TX A&M can be in the SEC I guess everything is relative...


Is the master listing of all courses voted on by the panel and their percentile rankings available to download? 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jason Topp

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2022, 11:27:40 AM »
I dropped off the Golfweek panel, primarily because I was finding my evaluations less meaningful.  I am most familiar with Minnesota courses although I have played over 25% of the courses on most top 100 lists (Strangely my percentage is usually a bit higher on world lists than US lists).


When asked what I think the best course is in Minnesota, I find that I really do not have an opinion.  I think there are four candidates (WBYC, Northland, Interlachen, Minnikahda) but I can find flaws and positives about each course such that their relative ranking could change any day.  Furthermore, there are probably six or seven other courses that I would prefer to play to any of those four on a particular given day. 


I found I lost interest in trying to differentiate.  I enjoy good golf courses.  Some are worth seeking out, some are worth enjoying, some are worth playing with a good group and some are tolerable on the right day with the right people.  Even the miserable designs often provide the most interesting memories.


The value of these rankings for me is how they incentivize certain design approaches.  Courses have improved dramatically over the last twenty years - both the classics and new builds.  I hear more casual golfers appreciating an interesting test of golf rather than telling themselves a difficult golf hole is automatically a good golf hole.  Casual conversations about tree management on a golf course now leave me more concerned they advocate too much enthusiasm for removing trees rather than the opposite.


 The recent presentation about Woodhall Spa by Richard Latham at the BUDA is one piece of evidence demonstrating that rankings have a direct impact on decisions courses make. 

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2022, 11:56:14 AM »


 The recent presentation about Woodhall Spa by Richard Latham at the BUDA is one piece of evidence demonstrating that rankings have a direct impact on decisions courses make.


Jason, agree that rankings have had an impact on the decisions courses make about work on their courses. I periodically hear folks say, "We did this work so that we can climb in the rankings." I don't always understand it, but it is true, nevertheless.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Michael Moore

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2022, 12:09:15 PM »
I periodically hear folks say, "We did this work so that we can climb in the rankings." I don't always understand it, but it is true, nevertheless.

And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
 
Genesis 28:12
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Steve Lang

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2022, 12:21:55 PM »
 ;D  Tommy,  I believe that is Sociology 101, folks change their behavior when the know they're being watched or ranked!  Gotta keep up with the neighbors be they next door or on a list...  How're you going to interest golfers or Tournament Sponsors or puff out your chest?


I get amuzed by the rankings and their insignificant decimal points forcing order...  I'll always remember Brad Klein's remarks at a GW Raters School we attended in Biloxi a long time ago, what's the overall take-away thoughts? Write them down ASAP, you'll need them to differentiate course numerical ratings and follow your point of view.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mark_Fine

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2022, 06:18:59 PM »
Anything that brings attention to golf course architecture is probably good in some way for golf course architecture.  There is no question there are negatives associated with the various lists - there was too much focus on difficulty, and too much focus on perfectly manicured conditions, and too much focus on history, and maybe too much preference to classic and/or modern,... but all of this creates debate and generally leads to improvement of the playing fields.  For example, is it good that many classic courses are being "restored" (or at least careful attention being given to their history/evolution) vs being simply "remodeled"?  Is it good that lists like GD changed their definition for great conditioning to show courses that the Augusta-syndrome is not necessary at your home course to still be considered great!  Is it good that there is variety in the different lists to not only showcase more of them, but encourage other courses to respect their asset and maybe try to make it even better.  If the lists were stagnant, few might ever try. 

Bottomline, the lists will always be controversial, they will never be right, and they will never satisfy everyone.  If they did, there would be nothing to talk about  ;)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 06:30:45 PM by Mark_Fine »

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2022, 04:37:41 PM »
;D  Tommy,  I believe that is Sociology 101, folks change their behavior when the know they're being watched or ranked!  Gotta keep up with the neighbors be they next door or on a list...  How're you going to interest golfers or Tournament Sponsors or puff out your chest?


I get amuzed by the rankings and their insignificant decimal points forcing order...  I'll always remember Brad Klein's remarks at a GW Raters School we attended in Biloxi a long time ago, what's the overall take-away thoughts? Write them down ASAP, you'll need them to differentiate course numerical ratings and follow your point of view.


Agree Steve.  There's a wonderful book written about this very topic.  ;-)

Ira Fishman

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2022, 05:16:27 PM »
I noticed that Landmand within a month of opening bested The Loop, Olympia Fields, Omaha, Beverly, Wolf Point, and a few others in the regional rankings. How does that happen?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 05:59:23 PM by Ira Fishman »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2022, 06:22:43 PM »
Itís enough of the same with a pinch more different than the above.

Ira Fishman

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2022, 06:46:00 PM »
Itís enough of the same with a pinch more different than the above.


I get the architecture part (from the posts, it looks like a very good take off of Ballyneal), but how do enough raters see it so close to the publication of the list? Can that few people in that amount of time drive the rankings?


Ira
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 09:48:31 AM by Ira Fishman »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2022, 06:50:05 PM »
They went to see the most excellent CapRock. I made the same trip.

Steve Lapper

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2022, 09:13:01 AM »
Itís enough of the same with a pinch more different than the above.


I get the architecture part (from the posts, it looks like a very good take off of Ballyneal), but how do enough raters see it so close to the publication of the list? Can that few people in that amount of time drive the rankings? (a rhetorical question).

Ira


As a panelist who played Landmand (at the end of a Colorado-Nebraska trip), I found it more interesting than several of the other names mentioned. Given the scale and undulations of the property, it isn't any "apples to apples" comparison. Those other courses are excellent and certainly eligible to place higher if other panelists vote them as such.

For me, Landmand was hardly " a very good take off on Ballyneal" (unless, of course, you consider Ballyneal a very good take off of Sand Hills?). It was unique and essentially a replica of nothing else I've ever seen. No doubt, Rob Collins, like all other architects, found inspiration from other great architecture.

John, and our panel, are correct IMO in their assessment of Caprock. It's a stellar example of naturally maximizing a unique property and creating strategy and excitement for golf.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ira Fishman

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2022, 09:44:16 AM »
Steve,


I completely accept your assessment. I was going by the photos which always is imprecise. I hope to make it to Landmand and Caprock. My comment was intended to make clear that I was not judging the merits of the course.


My question was only about process. How is there enough time between a course opening a couple of months ago and making the rankings? Isn't there a minimum number of raters that need to evaluate a course?


Thanks.








Adam Lawrence

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2022, 09:50:54 AM »
Steve,


I completely accept your assessment. I was going by the photos which always is imprecise. I hope to make it to Landmand and Caprock. My comment was intended to make clear that I was not judging the merits of the course.


My question was only about process. How is there enough time between a course opening a couple of months ago and making the rankings? Isn't there a minimum number of raters that need to evaluate a course?


Thanks.


I have been helping Landmand with PR and rater relations. We worked closely with Golf Digest to try to get a quora of their raters there, and Vaughn is a Golf magazine rater and has taken several of his fellows to see the course.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Steve Lapper

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2022, 10:18:46 AM »
Steve,


I completely accept your assessment. I was going by the photos which always is imprecise. I hope to make it to Landmand and Caprock. My comment was intended to make clear that I was not judging the merits of the course.


My question was only about process. How is there enough time between a course opening a couple of months ago and making the rankings? Isn't there a minimum number of raters that need to evaluate a course?


Thanks.


I have been helping Landmand with PR and rater relations. We worked closely with Golf Digest to try to get a quora of their raters there, and Vaughn is a Golf magazine rater and has taken several of his fellows to see the course.


As Adam mentioned, Vaughn was energetic about attracting a healthy # of GOLF Magazine panelists to visit. Ultimately, approximately a dozen panelists have played the course (>10% of the Panel) Most of the experienced amongst us scheduled enough time to play Landmand multiple times. Panelists I played with found the 2nd round even more revealing and informative than the first. It helped that we were fortunate to play with Rob Collins.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ira Fishman

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2022, 10:39:50 AM »
Adam and Steve,


Thanks for the fulsome information. I am envious of all of you who get to travel and play so frequently. We are pretty fortunate to get to see some great courses, but not to the same extent as some of you.


Ira

Adam Lawrence

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2022, 11:24:53 AM »
Adam and Steve,

Thanks for the fulsome information. I am envious of all of you who get to travel and play so frequently. We are pretty fortunate to get to see some great courses, but not to the same extent as some of you.

Ira


If it's any consolation I still haven't seen the course. Hope to do so next spring.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2022, 01:23:57 PM »

As Adam mentioned, Vaughn was energetic about attracting a healthy # of GOLF Magazine panelists to visit. Ultimately, approximately a dozen panelists have played the course (>10% of the Panel) Most of the experienced amongst us scheduled enough time to play Landmand multiple times. Panelists I played with found the 2nd round even more revealing and informative than the first. It helped that we were fortunate to play with Rob Collins.


So you all stayed there longer and played multiple rounds [including with the architect], and the course still didn't make the top 100?


Ben Sims

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2022, 02:14:17 PM »
The last few posts have really caught me off guard. Is the the hiring of a consultant to coordinate with publications to get a course rated a common thing? Is this part of the checklist for opening a new course these days? I genuinely donít have s clue and Iíd like to know more.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2022, 02:53:37 PM »
The last few posts have really caught me off guard. Is the the hiring of a consultant to coordinate with publications to get a course rated a common thing? Is this part of the checklist for opening a new course these days? I genuinely donít have s clue and Iíd like to know more.


PR is perfectly normal. And raters are just part of the extended media.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Steve Lapper

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2022, 02:55:24 PM »

As Adam mentioned, Vaughn was energetic about attracting a healthy # of GOLF Magazine panelists to visit. Ultimately, approximately a dozen panelists have played the course (>10% of the Panel) Most of the experienced amongst us scheduled enough time to play Landmand multiple times. Panelists I played with found the 2nd round even more revealing and informative than the first. It helped that we were fortunate to play with Rob Collins.


So you all stayed there longer and played multiple rounds [including with the architect], and the course still didn't make the top 100?


Since you are asking a (rhetorical) question you already know the answer to, I imagine this is an exercise in "setting me up" for some sort of critique. I'm going to disappoint you and simply state that of those I played with or spoke with had varying opinions. Apparently, there were not enough votes to place it within the last bracket inside the Top 100.......but you already knew that.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 02:59:42 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Joe Hancock

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Re: GOLF Magazine 2022 - 23 Top 100 U.S. Course Rankings
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2022, 03:03:44 PM »

As Adam mentioned, Vaughn was energetic about attracting a healthy # of GOLF Magazine panelists to visit. Ultimately, approximately a dozen panelists have played the course (>10% of the Panel) Most of the experienced amongst us scheduled enough time to play Landmand multiple times. Panelists I played with found the 2nd round even more revealing and informative than the first. It helped that we were fortunate to play with Rob Collins.


So you all stayed there longer and played multiple rounds [including with the architect], and the course still didn't make the top 100?


Like you were gigginí frogs and hoping to get something on each spearÖ..
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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