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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Caddies
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2022, 09:41:03 PM »
Sean,


$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?


Is this a bit?


Basic opportunity cost.


The romance of the idea is what drives the cost up. Every time you post in this thread some caddy charges $10 more per round.




Kyle (and Sean):


Mike and I are older than you lot.  The numbers have changed beyond our recognition.


Kids as caddies are a thing of the past, unless subsidized by the possibility of university scholarships, which is sort of a meritocracy lottery.  (I'm surprised I support it, honestly.). The caddie program at CommonGround is based on that, but at least it's also subsidized by people who have won the lottery previously:  https://www.coloradogolf.org/solich-caddie-academy/


Otherwise, prevailing wages make caddies a luxury that not many golfers will pay for on a regular basis.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2022, 03:41:19 AM »
Sean,


$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?


Is this a bit?


Basic opportunity cost.


The romance of the idea is what drives the cost up. Every time you post in this thread some caddy charges $10 more per round.




Kyle (and Sean):


Mike and I are older than you lot.  The numbers have changed beyond our recognition.


Kids as caddies are a thing of the past, unless subsidized by the possibility of university scholarships, which is sort of a meritocracy lottery.  (I'm surprised I support it, honestly.). The caddie program at CommonGround is based on that, but at least it's also subsidized by people who have won the lottery previously:  https://www.coloradogolf.org/solich-caddie-academy/


Otherwise, prevailing wages make caddies a luxury that not many golfers will pay for on a regular basis.

For much longer than my lifetime and yours, caddies have been a luxury that most golfers won't pay for on a regular or even semi regular basis. Caddies are a vestige of the game reserved for a fairly small percentage of wealthy private club members. Even when I was a teenager a kid caddie cost as much as round on a decent public course.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2022, 11:14:50 AM »
Is charity a luxury reserved only for members of private clubs? Throw a kid a bone.

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2022, 04:30:05 PM »
The last caddie I had was a retired chemical engineer who lives at his lake house. Before that the guy was going to head to the Russian Bathhouse for a massage after the round.



Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Jim OíKane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2022, 03:54:27 AM »
Here in Chicago, there have been changes to almost all caddy programs in the past year because of this issue.


The caddies ALL had to sign docs saying that then were "independent contractors" this season.
At some clubs, the payment now exists solely via the player directly to the caddy instead of through the club's caddymaster who, in the past,  paid the caddies in cash then billed the member's account.


I caddied in the late 70's and early 80's NW of Chicago. I wonder if things have changed in WGA programs supported there.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2022, 10:44:43 AM by Jim OíKane »

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2022, 08:12:18 AM »
In the mid 1930's my Dad caddied at a club in Westchester County, NY. He was in his early teens and hitch-hiked to the club from his home in White Plains. The fee was 35 cents (not sure if that was for a single bag or two) and the caddie master made the caddies buy a single serving Mrs Wagner's pie for a nickel so he'd come home with 30 cents which I think was a lot of money during the Depression.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2022, 06:18:33 PM »
At 14(1976) I started caddying at the club my dad was the head pro at in NJ.
The juniors who were members had to caddy to be able to play that day.  There were exceptions when needed, but rarely needed. We also could not play til 200pm


We caddied, got lunch, and balls in the air as soon as 2pm struck!  Nobody bitched and we had a blast.


20 bucks to carry 2 bags


Regulars sometimes a bit more. And tournaments with a good result could be a bonanza!


Bought a 1967 Mustang for 700$ cash when I got my license with those earnings.


Best job I could imagine as a kid

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2022, 10:43:32 AM »
My last trip to Pebble Beach was in 1992, seven days, I had a great caddy by the name of "Foot". He got $100 per day plus a bonus on the last day. He never showed up for the last day, too much drink.


My first round at Cypress Point, I hit my drive and the caddy handed me a 6 iron. I looked at him like he was crazy, but I hit it hole high 15 feet away. I never asked him yardage or anything the rest of the day.


My first round at Royal County Down, I teed off, got to my ball and he handed me a 9 iron.It handed 20 yards short, took a giant bounce and ended up 10 feet from the hole.


I was in a bunker on the 2nd hole at Pine Valley. My caddy told me to hit it 40 feet left of the hole and I wound up with a tap in.


Great memories, wow, its 2022, these memories are 30-40 years old, I'm shocked they just popped up in my mind. Now if I could only remember my wife's name.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2022, 04:27:37 PM »
Would love to hear from Archie and Chappers on this topic.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2022, 08:44:16 PM »
I donít know what became of it but in my last years at Four Streams, the caddies joined some kind of caddie company with health care etc. it seems they were paid out of some pool. At the Dormie Clubs caddie fees are charged to our accounts but we tip them. Not sure how that works or if they are employees of the club.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2022, 11:31:02 AM »
Pat,

That sounds very reasonable.  $20 in 1976 would be worth $104 in 2022. 

Cary

I wish I knew you back then.   $100 in 1992 is $211 today.  Barney is certainly smiling at that;D

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2022, 09:36:55 PM »
In the Chicago area, essentially all of the private clubs have caddy programs.  Members are "encouraged" to contribute to the Evans Scholar Foundation.  While most clubs have a few adult professional caddies, the backbone of the program is high school and college students.  They spend the summer outdoors, make a good buck and have a chance to earn a scholarship. Our club has its own scholarship program for employees and their children.  Caddies are eligible for this program which supplements the Evans. Some time ago, the Daniel Murphy Foundation became a feeder by providing opportunities to inner city high school students and the Evans Foundation has followed suit with caddy academies for high school students.  This summer at our club we had several caddies from the inner city as well as some from as far away as New York.  On top of everything else, the students are introduced to  golf and meet and talk to individuals who they might never have been exposed to absent the job.  The experience can be very valuable.  This is all possible because of the dedication of the employees and Board of the Foundation and the "buy in" from the clubs.  Several public courses have started their own caddy programs in connection with the Foundation.  At my club, in season, our caddy rounds exceed our cart rounds even though it is a little more expensive.  It is a great way to play and it does a lot of good.  It is a shame that the program is not widespread.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2022, 11:05:04 PM »
 ;D 8) ???


This isn't the first time caddie "wages" were under review.  Hope that it stays static and allows loopers under the age of 18 to work without paying taxes on their income.


It's great having a caddie who knows his business. Probably the best way to play, particularly if he/she  is quiet and attentive. For me it's typically a special occasion or course when I get to play with a caddie these days. Obviously we were well paid at Pine Valley but in many ways my early years at Woodcrest were the best. At first I carried one bag and a putter ( 1967-68 age 11-12) and made about $8-12 a round depending on how much the cart player decided to give you above the rate ... then two and two when the caddie master thought I could handle a whole group on my own. However as I got better and older had many putter jobs where you had two carts and you just managed the whole game for the players. Best way to describe it was an expediter with key on fore- caddying and reading greens raking traps etc for whoever wanted that service. By age 17-18 was making about 20-25$ round doing that . As a college freshman went to nearby Pine Valley and carried a lot of double rounds daily which was why it was very lucrative.


Have often thought that having younger caddies do the fore-caddie job for a little less pay would make a lot of sense. Many of my friends and I would use them as it is a pleasure to have a good one and speeds play. However many clubs might fear lawsuits if they got hit with a ball or screwed up and got hurt moving a cart at age 13-16 ....in our day it just didn't happen . Sorry to all my legal buddies out there but  :P ::) :P  of course our parents never harass little league umpires either lol ! 

$100 to $150 a bag is pretty pricey for many of us so if there were another option to have a caddie  accompany you in scenario two  for say $10-15 a person and do some basic "stuff" it would open up more jobs for loopers without losing cart revenue for the club
 $50 -60 a round for fore-caddies  with some playing privileges for good work  doesn't seem like indentured servitude to me for a young person..


p.s.  thanks for the shout out Jeff and I remain in awe of the midwest and the Evans program   ... you guys are the shit


 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 08:24:40 AM by archie_struthers »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2022, 09:46:18 AM »
There is no question that Caddies are expensive, but we almost uniformly have found that they add great value to the experience, particularly when we are playing on a trip. And sometimes that value add is vicarious in seeing a fellow player follow a Caddieís advice successfully. Just yesterday, we had a very good Caddie at Southern Pines who went out of his way to assist the elderly couple with whom we were paired. On number 7, the husband hit a terrific shot to about 8 feet, but it was a wicked downhill breaker. My Caddie stepped in to show him the spot to which to let the putt die. When the putt dropped dead center, all of us could not have been more delighted.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2022, 12:47:53 PM »
"This isn't the first time caddie "wages" were under review.  Hope that it stays static and allows loopers under the age of 18 to work without paying taxes on their income."


I've been a CPA for 35 years and never knew there was a tax exemption for caddies under the age of 18 ;D 

« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 01:26:45 PM by Rob Marshall »
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2022, 01:03:04 PM »
Streamsong just sent an offer for a premium room that includes Butler service from 6 am to 10 pm. If I could get Hobson to get me up and tuck me in, Iím there.



Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2022, 01:45:39 PM »
The last time I took a caddie, it was a double bag. We paid a standard rate, nothing over the normal at that club. After the round I made a quick calculation that the guy carrying my golf bag just made more than the average regional airline first officer at many carriers.


The market dictates what it dictates. Iím fine with that. But you canít tell me thatís not a little wonky.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 01:48:50 PM by Ben Sims »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2022, 02:00:13 PM »
In the last few years caddies have started taking carts for themselves. Spent four days at Pebble with a caddie that said it was impossible for him to carry double. Requesting a caddie that is healthy enough to walk on his own feels ableist, elitist and duplicitous. There is something wrong with forcing a man to walk as he services you.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2022, 02:09:33 PM »

In the last few years caddies have started taking carts for themselves. Spent four days at Pebble with a caddie that said it was impossible for him to carry double. Requesting a caddie that is healthy enough to walk on his own feels ableist, elitist and duplicitous. There is something wrong with forcing a man to walk as he services you.





You might want to re-word that last sentence.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2022, 02:36:19 PM »
Pat,

That sounds very reasonable.  $20 in 1976 would be worth $104 in 2022. 

Cary

I wish I knew you back then.   $100 in 1992 is $211 today.  Barney is certainly smiling at that;D


Kalen
It was very good back then


Bought my first car with a wad of $20 bills when I was 17.  Guy looked at me kind of crosseyed  :D


Learned a lot, had a big impact on my ability to play ( and enjoy) pro-ams. 

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies New
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2022, 04:57:10 PM »
 ::) ::)


Rob , my bad on the taxes for kids mistake , had a senior moment I guess.


We've revisited caddies on board here for a couple decades and prices keep going up. That's fine for some affluent clubs and not unexpected. However I am always amazed that not many would opt for a fore-caddie who raked traps, gave yardages, read greens and moved carts to expedite play.


I for one would take one at least two or three times a week at our club.  Do you guys really think $60-70 bucks a round for young caddies would be akin to slave labor ?  Don't think it's that bad for a younger looper that doesn't have to carry a bag.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2022, 08:15:41 AM by archie_struthers »

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2022, 09:21:28 PM »
Just busting your chops Archie.


I was playing a course in Florida and met a woman from Chicago who was a strong player looking to join the club. I canít remember what course she was a member at but she told me before 2 or 3 in the afternoon you had to take a caddie. I played 80 rounds this year. That would be another $8k on my bill. Thatís a tough swallow for an already expensive hobby.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2022, 10:47:44 PM »

In the last few years caddies have started taking carts for themselves. Spent four days at Pebble with a caddie that said it was impossible for him to carry double. Requesting a caddie that is healthy enough to walk on his own feels ableist, elitist and duplicitous. There is something wrong with forcing a man to walk as he services you.





You might want to re-word that last sentence.


That tickled my funny bone.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2022, 05:10:47 AM »


how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?

Ciao


Yep, I'd say clubs(and staff) would be ecstatic if that were to happen.
nearly as likely as a meteor strike, but yeah, we'd be ecstatic.
I mean, how hard could it be? ;) ;D ;D

I really don't know. So much these days is bookable online or with an app. Shit, I book taxis with WhatsApp once I learned who the good drivers are.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, Hinckley, Robin Hood & Ladybank

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