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Steve_ Shaffer

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Caddies
« on: October 25, 2022, 11:16:57 PM »
Club Caddies Sue For Minimum Wage And Overtime Pay
A class action has been filed against Morris County Golf Club, alleging that the private club breached New Jersey law by failing to pay its caddies minimum wage and overtime. As have other lawsuits in recent years, this case raises the issue of whether the caddies serve as employees or independent contractors.
http://www.golfdisputeresolution.com/?p=7758
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 12:44:49 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2022, 02:18:34 AM »
I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.


Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.

Sean_A

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2022, 04:23:08 AM »
I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.


Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.

Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 04:26:13 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Kyle Harris

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2022, 05:03:09 AM »
The opportunity cost of caddying for anyone under graduate age grows daily.


We need pilots, not real estate agents with connections.


https://www.faa.gov/education/programs/highschool
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Kyle Harris

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2022, 05:25:04 AM »
I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.


Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.


If it’s that disappointing to you then you’d gladly pay more. If it’s not worth it to you then it mustn’t be that disappointing.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tim Martin

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2022, 07:30:34 AM »
I read the complaint and will be interested in the outcome. Anyone that has caddied learns quickly that there can be a lot of down time waiting for a loop. The phrase “hurry up and wait” could certainly apply to the profession inasmuch as getting to the caddie yard at a requisite time is no guarantee of getting out right away. In my experience staging and then cleaning carts after a round was/is usually the responsibility of the guys that work for the pro rather than caddies but would certainly apply dependent on the club. It’s a double edged sword for the caddies in that as independent contractors all cash income is their responsibility to declare and pay tax on whereas with employee status that ship sails and you get a W2. Anyone that is aware of how this case proceeds hopefully will report back by way of posting on this thread.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 07:33:36 AM by Tim Martin »

Mike_Trenham

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2022, 08:37:14 AM »
I’ve heard for 12+ months now NJ had been investigating a number of clubs in NJ for this issue.   I would assume more to come on this beyond just Morris County Golf Club.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

jeffwarne

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2022, 09:19:50 AM »
Anyone who thinks this is a simple issue with one solution...
hasn't run a caddie program for 20 plus years.


Pre-pandemic, this was the topic of nearly every educational program/forum I sat on-especially in the winter of 2019-20.


Since then, we've had bigger fish to fry, but the challenge persists.









"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2022, 07:08:39 PM »
I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.


Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.

Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?

Ciao


Which is sort of my point - where are the kids happy to work as I was for what would now be $15 for 36 holes?
I guess they don't exist.
At Royal Melbourne, where Geoff Ogilvy caddied, the pay-off was caddies could play the course after 4.00pm. The course I caddied on the other side of town were also incredible generous and let me play until I was old enough - 14 - to join.

Sean_A

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2022, 07:41:00 PM »
I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.


Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.

Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?

Ciao


Which is sort of my point - where are the kids happy to work as I was for what would now be $15 for 36 holes?
I guess they don't exist.
At Royal Melbourne, where Geoff Ogilvy caddied, the pay-off was caddies could play the course after 4.00pm. The course I caddied on the other side of town were also incredible generous and let me play until I was old enough - 14 - to join.

Less than a buck a hole is something harsh. I always figured kid caddies had access to the course on some Mondays. That's how it was when I last checked.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Craig Sweet

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2022, 07:47:54 PM »
Jesus, some people are so out of touch.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Mike_Clayton

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2022, 01:47:50 AM »
I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.


Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.

Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?

Ciao


Which is sort of my point - where are the kids happy to work as I was for what would now be $15 for 36 holes?
I guess they don't exist.
At Royal Melbourne, where Geoff Ogilvy caddied, the pay-off was caddies could play the course after 4.00pm. The course I caddied on the other side of town were also incredible generous and let me play until I was old enough - 14 - to join.

Less than a buck a hole is something harsh. I always figured kid caddies had access to the course on some Mondays. That's how it was when I last checked.

Ciao


It didn't seem harsh because money wasn't the point of caddying.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2022, 02:16:11 AM »
I just want to find a 13-year-old me who was more than happy to caddy 36 holes on Saturday for the price of two new golf balls ($2 - 1970) and a sandwich.


Caddies don't exist in Australia which is such a disappointment.

Maybe the reason they don't exist is due to cost. A caddie is a luxury piled on top of a luxury game. For many golfers it's either golf with no caddie or no golf. That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?

Ciao


Which is sort of my point - where are the kids happy to work as I was for what would now be $15 for 36 holes?
I guess they don't exist.
At Royal Melbourne, where Geoff Ogilvy caddied, the pay-off was caddies could play the course after 4.00pm. The course I caddied on the other side of town were also incredible generous and let me play until I was old enough - 14 - to join.

Less than a buck a hole is something harsh. I always figured kid caddies had access to the course on some Mondays. That's how it was when I last checked.

Ciao


It didn't seem harsh because money wasn't the point of caddying.

Maybe you were a bit unusual. Most kids I know like money 😎. It's ok to see the world through sunny golf glasses, but come on, $15 a round when McDonald's pays that in less than two hours? That's not reasonable.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2022, 04:27:16 AM »
Sean,


$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?

Kyle Harris

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2022, 04:38:10 AM »
Sean,


$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?


Is this a bit?


Basic opportunity cost.


The romance of the idea is what drives the cost up. Every time you post in this thread some caddy charges $10 more per round.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2022, 05:15:50 AM »
Sean,


$15 for 2 rounds! $1 a round in 1970 was the cost of a new ball. What's a new ball now? $5?

5 bucks a ball? You don't know me very well. But I get your point. Mention golf as part of a product and tag on x% more.

If I have to have caddie I would prefer a high schooler. Going on your cost analysis a caddie should cost about $25 if a ball is more like $3. That's the cost of cart! Sorry, that ain't gonna fly in today's world...and I don't blame kids for not doing that work for peanuts unless they seriously value the benefit of free golf one day a week. Still, for folks willing to pay for caddies, I think there is room to pay a lot more and offer free golf.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2022, 10:22:24 AM »
Here in Chicago, there have been changes to almost all caddy programs in the past year because of this issue.


The caddies ALL had to sign docs saying that then were "independent contractors" this season.
At some clubs, the payment now exists solely via the player directly to the caddy instead of through the club's caddymaster who, in the past,  paid the caddies in cash then billed the member's account.

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2022, 10:36:55 AM »
   My club allows sons or daughters of members to caddy. In the late ‘80’s, I paid my 12 year old son $25 to carry a single bag. His first experience caddying doubles was the fall Calcutta, at which my partner and I each won $3,000.  My partner gave him $300, so I had to give him $300.  When we got home, his mother asked him how carrying doubles went.  His response, “Mom, when you carry doubles you get $600!” 

Rob Marshall

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2022, 10:41:08 AM »
Here in Chicago, there have been changes to almost all caddy programs in the past year because of this issue.


The caddies ALL had to sign docs saying that then were "independent contractors" this season.
At some clubs, the payment now exists solely via the player directly to the caddy instead of through the club's caddymaster who, in the past,  paid the caddies in cash then billed the member's account.


Teach the kid how the underground economy works……


BTW signing something that’s says you are an independent contractor doesn’t mean anything. There are various tests to meet.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 11:09:23 AM by Rob Marshall »
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2022, 12:36:03 PM »
   My club allows sons or daughters of members to caddy. In the late ‘80’s, I paid my 12 year old son $25 to carry a single bag. His first experience caddying doubles was the fall Calcutta, at which my partner and I each won $3,000.  My partner gave him $300, so I had to give him $300.  When we got home, his mother asked him how carrying doubles went.  His response, “Mom, when you carry doubles you get $600!”


I sure learned a ton as a caddy in central NJ in the mid-70's.


$7 per bag was the going rate and I was thrilled if my loop bought me a welch's grape juice at the turn.
We were all in middle or early high school. The "locals" were 40+ year old guys from Trenton who came with cigarettes, "Night Train" and skinny joints.


As a young Canadian (we had just moved to NJ from Toronto), I was "lefty" as I played hockey.
One Monday on "caddy day" i was hitting balls on the range and the caddy master, a journeyman tour pro/prolific ball striker and ex-alcoholic, was watching me while dragging on the onmipresent cigarette.


"Mackenzie", he bellowed, "Get over here."
Trembling and nervous, I slinked over, "Ya, Pete?"


"Here, hit this." as he handed me a right-handed 7 iron.
"But, Pete, this is a righty club," I bleeted.
"No shit...do this this and this", as he showed me grip, stance and set up.


I took a few swings and hit a ball.


"There, you're a righty golfer now. Go play", and he turned and walked away.


That was 46 years ago and he sold me my first set of RH irons: MacGregor Ben Hogans.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2022, 12:39:26 PM »
In the early 80s, I had a paper route (rain or shine) to earn a bit of extra cash.  And when I worked out the hourly rate years later,  I was making about $.25/hour based on the time it took to fold and deliver them every day, and then collect monthly payment.

I was like 12 and I didn't know any better, but thankfully the practice was banned under child labor laws as exploitative.

So to read that $15 for 8-9 hours work is somehow OK? in 2022?....SMH.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2022, 01:29:24 PM »
So to read that $15 for 8-9 hours work is somehow OK? in 2022?....SMH.


I'm not sure, but he may have been intending to refer to whatever the inflation-adjusted equivalent of that $15 would now be.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2022, 02:52:02 PM »

 




 That said, how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?

Ciao



My club in Ohio tried the app thing for awhile.  Wasn't all that popular.


Supposedly the app provided insurance and I assume took a cut.


Not sure if this was the company.


https://clubandresortbusiness.com/new-app-streamlines-caddie-appointments-payment/

Like Jim one of my regular playing partners had his son push his pushcart around.  Paid him lunch, soda and a small amount of cash.  I never offered the kid more than his dad but definitely thought about it.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2022, 09:53:41 AM by Joe_Tucholski »

jeffwarne

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2022, 07:46:02 PM »


how would clubs react if caddies just turned up and did their job...hired thru an app?

Ciao


Yep, I'd say clubs(and staff) would be ecstatic if that were to happen.
nearly as likely as a meteor strike, but yeah, we'd be ecstatic.
I mean, how hard could it be? ;) ;D ;D



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Craig Sweet

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Re: Caddies
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2022, 08:18:36 PM »

At Bandon the caddie fee is $100 plus gratuity...paid directly to the caddie.


How many high schoolers do you see caddying at Bandon? 



LOCK HIM UP!!!

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