[Rob Marshall]

Somewhere on this site is a quote from Jeff Warne about green speeds ruining classic greens.


Played the first round of a scratch 2 man today. Shotgun start. A group starts on a 180 yard par 3. They made an 8 and a 10. They call the pro shop and they came out changed the pin and let them play the hole again. I watched multiple putts roll either off the green or 10 to 20 feet past the pin. A few putts stopped and rolled backward. Great fun when you defensively putt on almost every hole.


Let’s start a new topic about “fair”. Anyone ever heard of moving the hole location and getting a do over?


Classic Donald Ross

[Tim Martin]

Rob-I’ve never heard of moving the hole and getting a do over. I would like to think that the team complaining was trying to protect the field but it seems more likely they were trying to protect their own scorecard. Is the way to test scratch players to terrorize them with 3 footers above the hole? I can’t imagine that was Ross’s intent.

[Mark_Fine]

Rob,
Is this post about hole locations or green speeds or just about a poorly located cup and an unusual rules circumstance? 

There are locations on most any green (classic or modern) where it would be silly to locate a pin.  The ball would never stop anywhere around it. I promise I could set a pin on most every green at for example Streamsong Blue or Red that would not allow the ball to stop anywhere near the hole.  Is that a greed speed problem or the pin setter problem?

There is no question that green speeds have impacted classic courses (some times not for the better) but it goes too far to say it has ruined them.  Oakmont can get their greens to 16+.  Fownes and Loeffler never dreamed anything close to that. Has the course been ruined?  I don’t think so.  And yes there are many locations where a ball would never stop if a hole were located there.  This does take away some past hole locations and that is the trade off clubs need to make when they get their greens too fast. 

[John Blain]

Somewhere on this site is a quote from Jeff Warne about green speeds ruining classic greens.


Played the first round of a scratch 2 man today. Shotgun start. A group starts on a 180 yard par 3. They made an 8 and a 10. They call the pro shop and they came out changed the pin and let them play the hole again. I watched multiple putts roll either off the green or 10 to 20 feet past the pin. A few putts stopped and rolled backward. Great fun when you defensively putt on almost every hole.


Let’s start a new topic about “fair”. Anyone ever heard of moving the hole location and getting a do over?


Classic Donald Ross

Rob-
I believe the initials of the club where that took place are ICC.  Given what I have heard about that superintendent your story is not surprising in the least. It's all about ego. 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Even with slow greens, there can be poorly located pins.  However, when greens get 11+ fast, sometimes, what appears to be a safe hole location turns out to be too severe.  0ne year at Silver Spring CC in a local US Open Q, on the 15th my 12 foot birdie putt missed the hole and went less than a foot past the hole, and then came back 5 feet past where I had just struck the putt. Fortunately, I kept the next putt short and walked off with a 3 putt . And no one in my group had a disaster.  However the group behind us did, but they were already out of contention to advance.  The greens superintendent syringed the green for the last 8 following groups, and I still managed to earn a medal.  Without the watering, it could have been a competition disaster. 

[Rob Marshall]

Somewhere on this site is a quote from Jeff Warne about green speeds ruining classic greens.


Played the first round of a scratch 2 man today. Shotgun start. A group starts on a 180 yard par 3. They made an 8 and a 10. They call the pro shop and they came out changed the pin and let them play the hole again. I watched multiple putts roll either off the green or 10 to 20 feet past the pin. A few putts stopped and rolled backward. Great fun when you defensively putt on almost every hole.


Let’s start a new topic about “fair”. Anyone ever heard of moving the hole location and getting a do over?


Classic Donald Ross

Rob-
I believe the initials of the club where that took place are ICC.  Given what I have heard about that superintendent your story is not surprising in the least. It's all about ego.

John, you would be correct.


Mark, if you have a two tiered green and you can’t use the lower tier ever at a green speed of 10-11 I would say the green has been ruined. But I understand your point.

[Mark_Fine]

Rob,
Has the green shrunk over the years or is it out to the edges of the fillpad?  That would be the first thing I would look at. 


No question hole locations on portions of greens can be lost due to higher green speeds.  But I have to say (even though I have recently had to soften a few older greens for this very reason) the far majority of older/classic greens still function surprisingly well at these higher speeds.  Doesn’t mean we all like it. 

[Rob Marshall]

Based on the slope at the bottom of the lower tier I would say it hasn’t shrunk. The problem Mark with this particular green is that if you were on the upper level putting to the lower level your ball would end up 20 to 40 yards down the fairway. Maybe even longer if the fairway was dry.That’s not an exaggeration. I don’t think that was Ross’s intent but I could be wrong.


I did not see Forrest’s post from yesterday or I would have posted there.

[cary lichtenstein]

I liked the old greens with the bigger slopes and slower Stimpmeter

[A.G._Crockett]

Somewhere on this site is a quote from Jeff Warne about green speeds ruining classic greens.


Played the first round of a scratch 2 man today. Shotgun start. A group starts on a 180 yard par 3. They made an 8 and a 10. They call the pro shop and they came out changed the pin and let them play the hole again. I watched multiple putts roll either off the green or 10 to 20 feet past the pin. A few putts stopped and rolled backward. Great fun when you defensively putt on almost every hole.


Let’s start a new topic about “fair”. Anyone ever heard of moving the hole location and getting a do over?


Classic Donald Ross

The closest thing I've experienced was a pin position change during a round in our club championship.  They waited until everybody from one flight had completed the hole, and then changed the pin before the first groups from the next flight came thru.  100%, though, this was a bad pin rather than green speeds.
Purely out of curiosity, were the greens on the "classic Donald Ross" still bent, or have they been converted to Bermuda? 

[Rob Marshall]

Somewhere on this site is a quote from Jeff Warne about green speeds ruining classic greens.


Played the first round of a scratch 2 man today. Shotgun start. A group starts on a 180 yard par 3. They made an 8 and a 10. They call the pro shop and they came out changed the pin and let them play the hole again. I watched multiple putts roll either off the green or 10 to 20 feet past the pin. A few putts stopped and rolled backward. Great fun when you defensively putt on almost every hole.


Let’s start a new topic about “fair”. Anyone ever heard of moving the hole location and getting a do over?


Classic Donald Ross

The closest thing I've experienced was a pin position change during a round in our club championship.  They waited until everybody from one flight had completed the hole, and then changed the pin before the first groups from the next flight came thru.  100%, though, this was a bad pin rather than green speeds.
Purely out of curiosity, were the greens on the "classic Donald Ross" still bent, or have they been converted to Bermuda?

Probably mostly poa and bent. Course is in Western NY.

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