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Thomas Dai

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2022, 10:26:15 AM »
ďI would guess that most Top 100 golf clubs in the USA would have an average of 30-50 green staff for 18 holes verses an average of 15-20 per 18 holes (top 100) in the U.K.,Ē Hall, the GM at Sunningdale is quoted in the article as saying.
[/size]15-20 green staff per 18-holes at a U.K. top 100? Really? Wow! Out of interest and curiosity I wouldnít mind seeing a breakdown analysis of this.[/color]
[/size]Atb
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2022, 11:38:30 AM »
ďI would guess that most Top 100 golf clubs in the USA would have an average of 30-50 green staff for 18 holes verses an average of 15-20 per 18 holes (top 100) in the U.K.,Ē Hall, the GM at Sunningdale is quoted in the article as saying.
15-20 green staff per 18-holes at a U.K. top 100? Really? Wow! Out of interest and curiosity I wouldnít mind seeing a breakdown analysis of this.
Atb




Correct. As an average, not a chance.


EDIT: I missed the Top-100 stipulation so maybe getting closer to that 15 low-end average when you have to factor in things like Adareís 45ish for 18 holes.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 11:44:20 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Tom_Doak

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2022, 02:30:02 PM »
When I lived in the UK in 1982, Muirfield had a staff of six tending to the #1 ranked course in the world.  Most clubs in Scotland have no more than that, unless you count all the sheep and cows at Brora.


The figures quoted "for the average top 100 course" are set up with a fat thumb on the scale to make it sound like clubs over there spend more than they do.  The US golf industry would not be happy if the magazine talked about good courses with more reasonable budgets.  But, let's just put it this way -- out of a million pounds, I would guess Royal Dornoch spends no more than £250,000 on the Struie course, and that's probably a lot closer to the average links than the £1 million quoted here.

David_Tepper

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2022, 03:27:53 PM »
Tom D. -

1982 was a long time ago. :) I am guessing there are more than 6 guys on the crew at Muirfield these days.

Any idea how large the greens crew is at the Renaissance Club?

DT


Adam Lawrence

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2022, 03:38:37 PM »
A couple of years ago, Prince's had ten or eleven people taking care of 27 holes.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2022, 03:28:17 PM »
A few years ago Moray had 6 staff to look after two 18 hole links while the assistant green-keeper at Fraserburgh told me he was the only assistant green-keeper although they did take on some seasonal staff during the summer and they also have 36 holes.


Niall

Sean_A

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2022, 04:11:15 PM »
A few years ago Moray had 6 staff to look after two 18 hole links while the assistant green-keeper at Fraserburgh told me he was the only assistant green-keeper although they did take on some seasonal staff during the summer and they also have 36 holes.

Niall

Maybe six isn't enough. I am told Moray's fairways are still a mess.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, West Byfleet, North Foreland & Ladybank

Niall C

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2022, 05:44:43 PM »
I heard that too at BUDA but having got back from Brancaster I can honestly say that Moray Old when we played it was no where near as bad as Brancaster is at the moment and Moray's sprinkler system wasn't working if you remember. We spoke to the club secretary at Brancaster and he suggested that this is normal for Brancaster at this time of year which is a bit worrying if you ask me.


Niall

Sean_A

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2022, 05:51:45 PM »
I heard that too at BUDA but having got back from Brancaster I can honestly say that Moray Old when we played it was no where near as bad as Brancaster is at the moment and Moray's sprinkler system wasn't working if you remember. We spoke to the club secretary at Brancaster and he suggested that this is normal for Brancaster at this time of year which is a bit worrying if you ask me.

Niall

I was told by a member that something else was going on with Moray. In any case, the issue has gone on for some time. Let's hope the issue is solved pronto.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2023: Cardigan, St David's City, Clyne, Panmure, Kinghorn, Harrogate, West Byfleet, North Foreland & Ladybank

Jeff Schley

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2022, 01:25:55 AM »
Thanks David.


I don't know how common they are some have artisans.  This can help defray manpower.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

David_Tepper

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2022, 09:52:46 AM »
Jeff S. -

Artisan clubs in the UK have been discussed here before:

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=48748.25;wap2

I think there are fewer artisan clubs than there used to be:

https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/artisan-golf.111323/

DT

Adam Lawrence

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2022, 11:31:04 AM »
I think generally speaking only posh clubs (which aren't typical as scantily staffed as most other places) have artisans.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2022, 10:51:23 AM »
Just a quick look at this from a US supers perspective (and based on the Mid Atlantic region). Surprisingly the article isn't too far off.


As Tom said, I would assume that more of the budget would go to the championship course, even if it is all coming from one source. So lets say its split 2/3 to 1/3 and base some assumptions off the 2/3; so figure $750,000 for the championship course.


The average fert/chem budget at a higher end club in the Mid Atlantic is $250,000 (and probably higher) so now the 18 holes is at $1m. Couple that with the need for less staff (no massive areas of rough to mow or acres of white sand to rake) so conservatively add $100,000 (6 people) in labor for seasonal help and now it's at the $1.1m of an average higher mid level US course. But then you have to compare it to the big clubs of the same caliber, who are spending double that, although most of that would be in salaries for the much larger staffs and easily double the fert/chem budgets. So although they are completely different animals the basics are similar and as Eion said in the article, the differences are in the chem/fert budgets to manage the turf in climates where it is not necessarily happy and prone to disease and the number of staff needed to maintain it on a daily basis (even if the number of staff quoted for the US is on the high side).



Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Ben Sims

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2022, 11:52:18 AM »
When I see these sorts of articles, it makes me think about the yin-yang of idealism and pragmatism. Of course turf is easier to manage in Scotland than in many(most) parts of the United States. Couple that with a distinct difference in golf culture and conditioning expectations and thatís why the vast disparity in agronomist practices exists. Isnít this sort of a yawn conversation after all these years?

jeffwarne

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2022, 12:13:56 PM »
When I see these sorts of articles, it makes me think about the yin-yang of idealism and pragmatism. Of course turf is easier to manage in Scotland than in many(most) parts of the United States. Couple that with a distinct difference in golf culture and conditioning expectations and thatís why the vast disparity in agronomist practices exists. Isnít this sort of a yawn conversation after all these years?


It's only a yawn conversation only if we continue to yawn.


Of course turf and climate conditions are much, much more friendly in Scotland than(most of) the US.


But the expectations are on us.
An amazing amount of  money is spent on things that often matter only to a certain percentage of players, and if properly educated/explained, would matter to even a smaller percentage, and to clubs in a strong financial position, the percentage could be further shrunk via recruitment of like minded individuals.


That's my complaint with the constant mantra of "growing the game".
I'd prefer to "preserve the game" and have the growth occur at the rate the education and respect can occur.











"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2022, 01:13:28 PM »
When I see these sorts of articles, it makes me think about the yin-yang of idealism and pragmatism. Of course turf is easier to manage in Scotland than in many(most) parts of the United States. Couple that with a distinct difference in golf culture and conditioning expectations and thatís why the vast disparity in agronomist practices exists. Isnít this sort of a yawn conversation after all these years?


It's only a yawn conversation only if we continue to yawn.


Of course turf and climate conditions are much, much more friendly in Scotland than(most of) the US.


But the expectations are on us.
An amazing amount of  money is spent on things that often matter only to a certain percentage of players, and if properly educated/explained, would matter to even a smaller percentage, and to clubs in a strong financial position, the percentage could be further shrunk via recruitment of like minded individuals.


That's my complaint with the constant mantra of "growing the game".
I'd prefer to "preserve the game" and have the growth occur at the rate the education and respect can occur.


Jeff,


That last paragraph is the real stuff.


But itís hard because this is America. Conspicuous consumption and unabashed consumerism is our guiding mantra. Iíve been pretty in touch with the common golfer this past year or two in stark comparison to the learned masses of traveling architecture nerds of the previous decade. The message of less turf cultivation is harder than ever to communicate. I try, they listen and acknowledge the message, then they turn around and whine that the greens are slow four days after they were aerated.


More than that, what Iím really getting at is that the conversation has to be internal to golf in this country. Comparison conversations with Scotland and Ireland donít work on people. They yawn and immediately think, ďyeah but thatís the way it is there.Ē And I agree. What about HERE needs to change?


Duncan Cheslett

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Re: One Scottish Club's Maintenance Budget
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2022, 01:31:26 PM »
Iíve recently started a new career as a greenkeeper at a municipal course in south Manchester.


Our budget for fertiliser, chemicals, maintenance of machinery, contractors, fuel etc is £30,000. (around $30,000😉)


Our new superintendent - an old hand at running munis on a shoestring - considers that to be generous.


We are a team of 5.



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