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Padraig Dooley

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Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« on: September 21, 2022, 06:23:09 PM »
Is there many courses not of 9 or 18 holes? Courses of 12,13,14 holes etc?

Are 16 and 17 hole courses unheard of?
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2022, 06:48:36 PM »
Padraig,


Gweedore Golf Club in Donegal has 14 holes. The 9th (18th), 1st (10th), 2nd (11th) and 3rd (12th) holes are played twice.

Cory Lewis

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2022, 06:54:54 PM »
Here are the courses I've played with a different number of holes.

5-Northgate Country Club(Fast Five)
6-Hamilton(Short), McLemore(Short), Origins(Heritage)
7-Streamsong(Roundabout), Silvies Valley Ranch(McVeigh's)
8-Glen Laurel
10-Pine Valley(Short), The Quarry at La Quinta(Short), Frederick Peak
11-Gilroy
12-The Saddle at GlenCove
13-Mountain Top at Big Cedar Lodge, Bandon Preserve
14-Quicksands course at Gamble Sands
17-The Sandbox at Sand Valley
19-many
20-Haig Point
21-Parkersburg CC
22-Ohoopee Match Club
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 06:59:23 PM by Cory Lewis »
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Michael Felton

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2022, 07:08:45 PM »
For a spell, Walton Heath Old sort of had 20 holes on it. They built a couple of "spare" holes, so they could still have 18 if one of the holes was out for work being done on it. They turned the 12th into a par 5 out into the space on the left and then a hole back from there played to the normal 12th green. The 12th itself as still there too, so 2 extra holes, but you couldn't really play 20 holes without a long walk and if you did, you'd play one green twice. Not sure that really counts.


I've seen a few with 19 holes. Knollwood in Westchester and Engineers spring to mind.

Jimmy Muratt

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2022, 07:25:53 PM »
The East course at Farmington in Charlottesville, VA is 10 holes.   It's made up of (6) par 3s, (3) par 4s and (1) par 5.   It was built a few years back by Coore & Crenshaw to complement the main course.   

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2022, 12:43:09 AM »
As John VDB will attest, Oregon has a six hole course called Kinzua Hills in central Oregon near Fossil. One time around is about 1400 yds, has three sets of tees.
Its other claim to fame is the 4th and 5th holes cross each other.

Mike Worth

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2022, 01:56:11 AM »
Shiskine — Isle of Arran - 12 holes
Seaton Carew - 22 holes.

JohnVDB

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2022, 02:37:22 AM »
As John VDB will attest, Oregon has a six hole course called Kinzua Hills in central Oregon near Fossil. One time around is about 1400 yds, has three sets of tees.
Its other claim to fame is the 4th and 5th holes cross each other.


Yes.  One of the Oregon GA course raters was quoted in an article in The Oregonian on the worst holes in the state as saying that all 6 holes there should be in the list.  The next time we went to rate it, they asked if he was with us.  When we said he wasn’t they put away the tar and feathers.  It’s not that bad.


Portmahomack across the water from Dornoch has 10 holes.  The second time around you play a different hole at the 7th / 16th. Both are par 3s.

Sam Morrow

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2022, 11:08:41 AM »
Mentioned above Northgate CC in Houston has a 5 hole course, the other 4 holes were destroyed by Hurricane Harvey, The Fast 5 has become very popular with families.


The Oaks in Corsicana, Texas was at one time an 11 hole course.


I can't remember what town it was in West Texas but I played a 6 hole course they were eventually hoping to expand to 9 holes.ppp

James Reader

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2022, 02:34:56 PM »
There is a 6 hole course in Yorkshire - Castlefields GC. Just over 800 yards for 18 holes but has a full course and slope rating (is there a shorter course, or one on a smaller footprint, anywhere in the world that can boast that?) and the team plays in the local league.  The club championship is played over 36 holes - 6 times round!


The course map is something else!



Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2022, 06:56:31 PM »
Another question is, how many would build a course where you could have a great course of 15 holes but building 18 on the same land would diminish it?

Is that just a hypothetical situation that doesn't arise?
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Tom_Doak

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2022, 07:10:33 PM »
The one architect I know of today who doesn't believe 18 holes are necessary is Edwin Roald, who's based in Iceland, where they don't care so much about the tradition of eighteen.  He has built a bunch of courses that are 9 or 12 or 14 holes because that's as much as he could fit onto the good parts of the land, and it made no sense to spend the money to get four other holes up to standard out of a difficult situation.


To the last question just posed by Padraig, it's very hard for most architects to even think about building less than 18 holes . . . it's just our mission statement when we start to find the best 18 holes we can.  And yes there are always a couple of holes that seem weaker than the others that you know you're going to have to work harder on, but you never think about just stopping at 15, or at least I don't.  I would, if the client said right from the beginning that was fine with him, but I would never try to talk a client into that.  It's just too far out there for most people.

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2022, 10:27:22 PM »
you never think about just stopping at 15, or at least I don't.  I would, if the client said right from the beginning that was fine with him, but I would never try to talk a client into that.  It's just too far out there for most people.

Tom,
I'm surprised you say you don't think about "just stopping at at 15" or any other number. Is that the pragmatist in you talking?
Why, in your opinion, is "it's just too far out there for most people?"

Edward Glidewell

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2022, 04:27:54 PM »
you never think about just stopping at 15, or at least I don't.  I would, if the client said right from the beginning that was fine with him, but I would never try to talk a client into that.  It's just too far out there for most people.

Tom,
I'm surprised you say you don't think about "just stopping at at 15" or any other number. Is that the pragmatist in you talking?
Why, in your opinion, is "it's just too far out there for most people?"


I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the vast majority of regular golfers would not travel to play a course of less than 18 holes, nor would they join a private club with less than 18. Something like a 15 hole course might work at a resort that already had other full 18s, but not as a standalone facility.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2022, 06:19:49 PM »
Edward,

I think the driver is from the owner/developer perspective.  You're gonna spend 8 figure$$$$ to acquire land, develop a plan, and pay someone to build you a course, and the you're only gonna build 15 holes?

No F'ing way that happens.... unless someone does all the work themselves as a personal project.

Edward Glidewell

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Re: Courses not of 9 or 18 holes?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2022, 06:15:35 PM »
Edward,

I think the driver is from the owner/developer perspective.  You're gonna spend 8 figure$$$$ to acquire land, develop a plan, and pay someone to build you a course, and the you're only gonna build 15 holes?

No F'ing way that happens.... unless someone does all the work themselves as a personal project.


That ties into my argument -- one of the reasons they aren't going to spend money to do that is because they're worried it won't attract players.

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