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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2022, 03:33:34 PM »
Ben,
You are incorrect, and you are welcome to go the OWGR website and read it for yourself.  Neither I nor anybody else has ever asserted that 72 holes with a 36 hole cut is the ONLY way that tournament golf is played, and the only format for which ranking points are awarded.
But if you are claiming that 72/36 is NOT the standard you are just wrong, and if you are claiming that somehow 54/0 is comparable, you are more than wrong.  Sorry.

A.G.
I feel like this point is worth reiterating:

There is a significant amount of "they can't do that because that's not the way it's been done" mentality around the format, which simply isn't true.

This seems to be where you're head is living these days. Especially when reading your reply to Peter's 90 holes question.

My participation in this thread was started on this notion that how things are done today are not the only way they could be done.  While the current structure of the OWGR does not mesh with what LIV has started with, I don't see where either is set in stone, especially since LIV is operating in its infancy and the OWGR very recently changed how it operates.
You could not be more wrong about my position.  I have absolutely NO ties to ANY ranking system, and I would have no problem with the OWGR rules being changed.  But just as with the lawsuit claiming restraint of trade by guys who left for millions of dollars, these guys HAD to know that they were going to a tour that simply does not meet the current criteria for ranking points. 

There are currently 23 tours worldwide that are approved for OWGR points, and all 23 follow the same basic format.  Variations happen, but must be approved by the Technical Committee.  None of the 23 play 54 holes as their basic format.  None of the 23 have a no cut format.  None of the 23 use shotgun starts.  None of the 23 have a situation in which many of the players are apparently NOT playing for "real" prize money, but rather for money that counts against their guarantee until they reach the guarantee amount.
I don't have a problem with changing the way things are done, and I do NOT have a problem with the guys that went to the LIV Tour taking the money and going elsewhere to play their competitive golf. None of this matters to me in the least.

But I DO have a problem with people that ask for special treatment when they have chosen not to comply with rules and procedures that were known in advance.  Take the money and go, and good on you.  But suck it up and take the consequences like big boys and get on with it.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2022, 03:45:57 PM »

To my surprise, LIV's five tournaments so far have had a better ranking than the five PGA Tour tournaments they have gone up against. The LIV tournament ranking has also improved from week to week as more players have been signed.


Make of it what you will.



I've always been a fan of Sagarin's methodology, especially for amateur golf.


One thing about this list is that adding a player like Smith to LIV really affects the tour's standing. After all, in the last 12 months he beat almost all of the top guys at The Players and The Open.


Moving forward the defectors will have fewer and fewer chances to play against big, deep fields. Regardless of what else occurs,  they're contracted to play in 14 events next year with 48-player fields made up of a significant number of players who haven't done much in the last 52 weeks.


Jeff's system pays dividends for beating player A who has also beaten players B, D, R, T and Y.


Unless I completely misunderstand, playing mostly against the same 47 other guys isn't a path to a high rank.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2022, 03:52:05 PM »
Isnít a fundamental issue with LIV that players are getting access to limited field, no cut events for reasons other than golfing merit - and may continue to do so for years even if they play terribly? 


If OWGR points were to be available, a contracted player could come last by 10 shots every week for a couple of years and still earn considerably more points, and a higher ranking, than someone who was beating half the field every week on the PGA or European Tours.


The ranking system is designed for a golfing landscape where there is movement between the tours on the basis of merit and where places on those limited field events that do attract points are earned by the quality of a golferís recent play.  LIV would have to fundamentally change its model (and, it would seem, breach a number of its playersí contracts) to fit into that world.

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2022, 04:30:30 PM »
Isnít a fundamental issue with LIV that players are getting access to limited field, no cut events for reasons other than golfing merit - and may continue to do so for years even if they play terribly? 

If OWGR points were to be available, a contracted player could come last by 10 shots every week for a couple of years and still earn considerably more points, and a higher ranking, than someone who was beating half the field every week on the PGA or European Tours.


That is a feasible scenario. And that player could be me. There is no way I could ever qualify for the PGA Tour. But LIV could invite me. I'd sign for a lot cheaper than most of these guys. There's nothing stopping Greg Norman from calling me up, I could be teeing it up in the next LIV event.


I once attended a Super Bowl party with Jeff Sagarin. It was the Patriots-Rams SB during Brady's rookie year. When the clock was winding down and the score was tied I noted that no Super Bowl had ever gone to overtime. Jeff Sagarin was pretty sure one had gone to OT. Unfortunately I had to correct him. The broadcast eventually confirmed that I was right. As far as claims to fame go it's not much, but it's something.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2022, 04:45:09 PM »
i think in the aggregate LIV golf suffers from a case of too many Bs, and the OWGR has sniffed it out

Bogus Tour Backing
Bogus Business Plan
Bogus Team Structures
Bogus Strength of field
Bogus Qualifying System & Signing structure
Bogus Tourney setups with 54 hole, no cut, shotgun starts
Bogus Incentive to perform with prize money counting against signing bonuses
Bogus Tournament coverage
Bogus Lawsuits
Bogus Premises that other Tours must accept them with open arms


P.S.  I would use Wrestling as an analogy.  There are plenty of legitimate forms to watch, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, etc in various competitions at the high school, college, and Olympic levels.

But if you wanna watch "Wrastlin" then turn on WWE ...and no doubt those guys certainly get paid much better to boot.

LIV is effectively the WWE of golf.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 04:56:49 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2022, 06:30:46 PM »
i think in the aggregate LIV golf suffers from a case of too many Bs, and the OWGR has sniffed it out

Bogus Tour Backing
Bogus Business Plan
Bogus Team Structures
Bogus Strength of field
Bogus Qualifying System & Signing structure
Bogus Tourney setups with 54 hole, no cut, shotgun starts
Bogus Incentive to perform with prize money counting against signing bonuses
Bogus Tournament coverage
Bogus Lawsuits
Bogus Premises that other Tours must accept them with open arms


P.S.  I would use Wrestling as an analogy.  There are plenty of legitimate forms to watch, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, etc in various competitions at the high school, college, and Olympic levels.

But if you wanna watch "Wrastlin" then turn on WWE ...and no doubt those guys certainly get paid much better to boot.

LIV is effectively the WWE of golf.


Which event did you go to?

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