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Sean_A

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #250 on: November 18, 2022, 05:32:01 AM »
Sean


Agreed, no good reason why a system can't be devised other than some of the stakeholders in the OWGR don't want to award LIV players points for their own commercial reasons.


In terms of your suggestion that they should get fewer points because of the tournament format, it brought to mind Rahm's comments in the last few days where he suggested it was ridiculous that the DP Tour event was getting less points compared to the PGA Tour event being played at the same time simply because the the PGA Tour event had more players. Rahm's point was that the DP event had 7 out of the world top 20 playing while the PGA event had none so was it not ridiculous that the DP event had fewer points.


Rahm's logic could be applied to awarding ranking points to the LIV Tour. 


Niall

Sure. In truth, the number of points should only be determined once the field is set. Predetermined points doesn't work well when tours are interconnected. And I hope tours become more fluid in this way if we can't have a true world tour. The more tours blend the more the less importance tours are.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022:

Rob Marshall

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #251 on: November 18, 2022, 09:00:51 AM »
Davis Love III had the best point. Just get rid of OWGR......
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #252 on: November 18, 2022, 09:03:28 AM »
I see no valid reason why, when it knows there are several very high quality LIV players, that it can't devise a new system which includes different tour set ups. It should be no skin off their nose if they are trying to rank players objectively. I can easily see a new system where LIV events are worth 25% (as an example) the points of a good US Tour event and worth maybe 50% of the poor events. Yes, it would make it difficult for LIV players to qualify for majors on points, but not impossible as is now the case and unreasonably so.
The simple answer here is that they don't meet the criteria, and even if they had, it has not been a year.

What's the point in having rules or criteria if you ignore them?

For all you know, after a year they'll say "okay, since you're 54 holes with no cut, we'll award 50% of the normal points owing to the fact that you're only 54 holes, cut that down to 40% because you don't have a clear qualifying criteria, cut awarding points off at the top 24 because that'll be like you had a cut, and since you've been around for a year now… you can start earning points."

Would that satisfy you, or do you want them to just say "okay, you don't meet several criteria, and you've been around for like six events, so here are your points?" and anything less will be unacceptable?

The LIV golfers knowingly went to a Tour which didn't meet the current criteria in many ways.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Niall C

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #253 on: November 18, 2022, 09:56:48 AM »
Rules/criteria are there to be followed but they are also open to change and adaption which happens on a regular basis. Witness Rahm's comments on the latest changes. The reason for any changes are fairly obvious for anyone with an open mind and that is so that the Rankings can as accurately as they can reflect the order of the best players in the world.


For the best part of a year the LIV tour has become a reality and not only that has secured a fair chunk of the best golfers in the world. To not therefore change the rules to take that into account would not only be inconsistent with previous changes but would also make their rankings less relevant. ie. perhaps relevant only to the PGA Tour and DP Tour who in excluding LIV golfers from their tournaments have no need for LIV golfers to be ranked.


I'm not sure the organisers of the majors will put up with that for too long.


Niall

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #254 on: November 18, 2022, 10:14:36 AM »
Rules/criteria are there to be followed but they are also open to change and adaption which happens on a regular basis.
So what's the timeframe for such a change? Because in the grand scheme of things, this hasn't been that long. The first LIV golf event was not even half a year ago. How quickly do you want them to rush something through?

Witness Rahm's comments on the latest changes.
Witness the DataGolf explanation of why the points worked out the way they worked out. And… the points are a result of a years-long process that resulted in a change not too long ago.

The reason for any changes are fairly obvious for anyone with an open mind
That's where you lose people, right there. You may as well just say "If you don't agree with me you're a moron."

I don't think they should rush into a change. They have criteria — criteria they've come to after decades of rankings — and the LIV stuff doesn't meet the criteria. And even if they meet them, or CHANGE the criteria, it's been five months.

So no, "open-minded" people can disagree with your opinion for valid reasons. And I see where you're coming from, I just don't agree with you on this matter of opinion. You, seemingly, can't see where anyone else is coming from… and so who is close-minded? Who here thinks their opinion is "correct" as if it's a math equation or a truth or a fact?

For the best part of a year
Their first event was June 9-11. June 11 was… quick math… 160 days ago.

To not therefore change the rules to take that into account would not only be inconsistent with previous changes but would also make their rankings less relevant.
How do you correlate that with the HERO or Target World Challenge and the changes it had to make to award OWGR points? Why didn't they just whine about it and make a similar argument as you've done here: "But, but, we're a no-cut 54-hole event with some of the best players, we should get points too!" No, they made changes to comply, including qualifying rather than invitations, and were awarded points.

And yet, oddly, LIV stans will point out that Tiger's event gets OWGR points, while simultaneously ignoring how similar they were to LIV events before they got points and that they changed so that they could get points.

I'm not sure the organisers of the majors will put up with that for too long.
Guess we'll see.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 10:16:53 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Steve Lang

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #255 on: November 18, 2022, 10:24:08 AM »
 ;)   The code? You're pirates! Hang the code and hang the rules! They're more like guidelines, anyway.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #256 on: November 18, 2022, 11:07:23 AM »
Rules/criteria are there to be followed but they are also open to change and adaption which happens on a regular basis. Witness Rahm's comments on the latest changes. The reason for any changes are fairly obvious for anyone with an open mind and that is so that the Rankings can as accurately as they can reflect the order of the best players in the world.


Erik


Having taken out the words that offend you, would you disagree with my comments above ?


With regards my best part of a year comment, they did announce the tour some time back in Feb/March but agree that LIV didn't hold their first event just under half a year ago. However given LIV signed-up a chunk of the best players early on, and continued to sign-up more, and that they have already announced big plans for next year, would you not think that would lead the OWGR people to look at redrafting the rules for next year ?


Niall

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #257 on: November 18, 2022, 11:29:08 AM »
Having taken out the words that offend you, would you disagree with my comments above?
So you're asking if I disagree with:
  • Rules/criteria are open to change
  • This change "happens regularly"
  • Jon Rahm commented on OWGR-related things
  • The reasons for change are "obvious"
  • The changes are to ensure accuracy
The first is a statement of fact, as is the second depending on your definition of "regularly."

The third is a statement of fact, too, inasmuch as Jon Rahm commented on the OWGR. But he's not an expert in the OWGR, he's just someone with an opinion, and DataGolf have commented, too, but as their comments don't align with your opinions, you're largely ignoring those (their comments, paraphrased somewhat accurately I hope, are that while the points seem to be "off" at the top [with RSM getting too many], they're as far off in favor of the DP as you move down the leaderboard).

I disagree that the reasons for the change are "obvious" as that again implies that anyone who doesn't agree with you is somehow blind to the "obvious," and the last relies on a presumption of the goals of the system, despite their stated goal as ranking the tours and leagues that are… and I forget their specific word, but basically "authorized" Tours.

I think LIV golf events may eventually get ranking points. They'll likely be small, in part because golfers will have seen their OWGR rank slip since as early as June, and because 30+ of the players on the Tour are pretty low anyway, and… I don't see them adding them retroactively.

So basically, you want them NOW and I think they'll eventually get them, despite not complying with the criteria, and that change will occur… just not as immediately as you want them to. And I'm fine with that… I just don't think they should get to bully their way into getting ranking points when they've done basically NOTHING to comply with the criteria, going so far as to make shit up.

You didn't answer my Hero line of discussion, either.

With regards my best part of a year comment
I didn't contest that. I only pointed out that your statement was misleading as their first event was less than a year ago.

However given LIV signed-up a chunk of the best players early on
I think you and I would disagree on who the "best" players are, or how many of the "best" players they have. LIV fields get pretty thin after a small number of players, and since they're busy playing these exhibition events… we have no way of really judging well they're playing right now. The more they play their insular events, the more we lack a valid frame of reference.


In other words:
  • You want the LIV Tour to get points now and/or think they should have already been getting them. I think they're coming, but a ways out, and the reasons they've not gotten them yet are valid.
  • You also likely think the LIV Tour has more of the "top" or "best" players than I do.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #258 on: November 18, 2022, 12:01:02 PM »
However given LIV signed-up a chunk of the best players early on, and continued to sign-up more, and that they have already announced big plans for next year, would you not think that would lead the OWGR people to look at redrafting the rules for next year ?
Niall
There's little incentive for the OWGR to take action on this while they're being sued by LIV in the state of FL over this issue (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/).

Had they wished to avoid being dragged into court they could have sat down with the powers that be at LIV and hammered out some type of points system, but they chose not to - perhaps under coersion from outside groups? Also named in the suit are the PGA Tour, DP World Tour and the Golf Channel. The complaint filed by LIV's attorneys alleges antitrust conspiracy and unfair trade, collusion and monopolization.

This combined with LIV's other lawsuits involving the PGA Tour and the U.S. Department of Justice investigation into antitrust conduct by the PGA Tour, among other notable golf organizations, does not bode well for its future going forward.

You can see what the LIV/Saudi strategy is and that's to tie-up the PGA Tour in as many lawsuits as possible and bleed the organization dry. It's all the more reason the parties involved - including the OWGR - need to sit down at the negotiating table and work out a mutual operating agreement that all sides can live with and honor. Unlke the PGA Tour, the Saudi's have deeper pockets and will bankrupt the PGA Tour, if necessary, to prove a point. In addition, the Saudi's have the Biden DOJ working on their behalf. If anyone thinks politics doesn't play a role in this you're fooling yourself. Look no further than the Biden administrations official statement released this morning saying Saudi Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman, should be granted immunity in the wrongful death lawsuit of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi, which completely contradicts the assurance of impunity he promised voters during the 2020 election.

Incredible the hoops some people will jump thru for increased oil production and cheap gas.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 12:04:13 PM by Mike Bodo »
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #259 on: November 18, 2022, 02:25:56 PM »
Had they wished to avoid being dragged into court they could have sat down with the powers that be at LIV and hammered out some type of points system, but they chose not to
"Had LIV wished to award OWGR points readily, they could have hammered out some sort of agreement with the OWGR prior to launching their Tour, or at least complied with the criteria and waited a year for the certification."

Just because they were sued doesn't mean they're going to lose.

You can see what the LIV/Saudi strategy is and that's to tie-up the PGA Tour in as many lawsuits as possible and bleed the organization dry.
Uhhhhhh… okay? You are aware that the PGA Tour counter-sued LIV, right? So if (as it seems) in your mind, the party who is suing is right, this puts you in a real pickle.

https://www.si.com/golf/news/pga-tour-countersues-liv-golf


It's all the more reason the parties involved - including the OWGR - need to sit down at the negotiating table and work out a mutual operating agreement that all sides can live with and honor.
Maybe the OWGR doesn't negotiate with terrorists.

And that's a bit sensationalist on purpose, but basically… they have criteria, and the LIV folks haven't met them, and they've only been hosting events for less than six months, but in your opinion they need to sit down and meet with the folks suing them? The folks who are breaking a bunch of things, throwing tantrums and lying left and right, etc.?

THAT is the kind of opinion with which I disagree. I don't think the OWGR "needs" to do any such thing. The onus is more on LIV to meet the criteria or justify why they should not only be allowed to fail to meet a bunch of criteria, but also to approve the awarding of ranking points in a rushed timeline.
Unlke the PGA Tour, the Saudi's have deeper pockets and will bankrupt the PGA Tour
Oh boy.
If anyone thinks politics doesn't play a role in this you're fooling yourself.
But, wait, I thought the Saudis were aligned with Trump? I'm only poking here, as I couldn't care much less about politics (which is not to say there's not a political component here).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 02:27:49 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

David Cronan

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #260 on: November 18, 2022, 03:19:53 PM »
There's little incentive for the OWGR to take action on this while they're being sued by LIV in the state of FL over this issue (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/).


LIV isn't a plaintiff in the lawsuit you linked; rather, it's a class action lawsuit courtesy of Larry Klayman, who has his own wing in the Batshit Crazy Hall of Fame. Klayman does, in fact, represent Patrick Reed in a couple of lawsuits involving the PGA and LIV (which is the perfect partnership) but to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with LIV.

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #261 on: November 18, 2022, 03:24:38 PM »
There's little incentive for the OWGR to take action on this while they're being sued by LIV in the state of FL over this issue (https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/15/florida-court-lawsuit-liv-golf-owgr-pga-tour/).


LIV isn't a plaintiff in the lawsuit you linked; rather, it's a class action lawsuit courtesy of Larry Klayman, who has his own wing in the Batshit Crazy Hall of Fame. Klayman does, in fact, represent Patrick Reed in a couple of lawsuits involving the PGA and LIV (which is the perfect partnership) but to the best of my knowledge, has nothing to do with LIV.
Thanks for clarifying, David.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #262 on: November 18, 2022, 08:03:48 PM »
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #263 on: November 18, 2022, 08:33:52 PM »
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #264 on: November 18, 2022, 09:11:11 PM »
A little insight to the rankings.

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/18/eamon-lynch-owgr-dp-world-tour-jon-rahm/
Yes, this (and Broadie) say what the DataGolf guys said:

Quote
The system introduced this summer ended institutional bias and endemic false accounting. Every player contributes points to a total that is disbursed by percentage. The winner of the RSM Classic is projected to receive 37 points, or 17.2% of the 215 total points available. The winner in Dubai should get 21.8, or 18.2% of the 121 points on offer.

“The current method recognizes that every player contributes to the strength of a field,” said Mark Broadie, the Columbia Business School professor who devised the algorithm. “The winner of the DP World Tour Championship has to beat 49 players, with 34 of those players ranked in the top 200. The winner of the RSM classic has to beat 155 players, with 68 of those players ranked in the top 200, a considerably tougher challenge.”

People minded to look for eye-opening wrinkles in the ranking system won’t be disappointed. For example, the man who finishes dead last in the no-cut tournament in Dubai is projected to receive more points than the bottom four finishers in Georgia, who will have beaten 90 guys to play the weekend. The line between imperfect and unfair is often a matter of perspective, and legislating against every such scenario is impossible.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Pete_Pittock

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #265 on: November 28, 2022, 02:47:08 PM »
Another defection from the PGA Tour to LIV. Per Golfweek, Mayakoba, the Greg Norman designed course will host an LIV event in 2023, dropping it's PGA Tour event.


Is Cameron Smith the best Australian golfer since Peter Thomson?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2022, 09:58:59 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #266 on: November 28, 2022, 02:59:39 PM »
Is Cameron Smith the best Australian golfer since Peter Thomsen?
Adam Scott and Jason Day would like a word. Cam Smith has been good for like a year at this point, and for a good chunk of 2022, we don't really know how good he was because he was playing against a good chunk of nobodies. Like at the Aussie tournament he just won… who knows? At any rate, Cam's been really good for only a short period of time. Let's slow our roll, eh? We'll see if it continues or if it's a short-term hot streak.

And Peter Thomson won one PGA Tour event… and a bunch of weak field British Opens. Adam Scott > Peter Thomson, I reckon.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2022, 03:02:44 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #267 on: November 28, 2022, 03:01:48 PM »
Why do only predominately brown sports play on Thanksgiving?  Hopefully the LIV will end this racist tradition.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #268 on: November 28, 2022, 06:29:16 PM »
A lot of talk about owgr and the tours getting points


Seems if we’re rating players, which is what they’re supposed to be doing, the event and field
Should matter most, not the tour it’s on.


The big tours want to keep LIV from this.  And they’ve already succeeded some.  Many of the LIV members rankings have gone down enough to impact the field values already, every month they can fight it impacts its more.


This isn’t about rules of OwGr. This is a battle for control

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #269 on: November 28, 2022, 06:34:24 PM »
Norman has effectively cucked the PGATour. It’s time for Monahan to stop watching and negotiate a settlement before he is relegated  to cleanup.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #270 on: November 28, 2022, 07:42:38 PM »
A lot of talk about owgr and the tours getting points


Seems if we’re rating players, which is what they’re supposed to be doing, the event and field
Should matter most, not the tour it’s on.


The big tours want to keep LIV from this.  And they’ve already succeeded some.  Many of the LIV members rankings have gone down enough to impact the field values already, every month they can fight it impacts its more.

This isn’t about rules of OwGr. This is a battle for control

Exactly. It rather feels like the OWGR is mainly serving selected tours rather than trying to identify the best players. If the OWGR wants to be the premier ranking system it must be much quicker in reacting to the changing landscape of pro golf. What is the point of time delays when everyone knows some of the best players play on Tour which is excluded. Falling back on rules, most of which are questionable in terms of their absolute necessity in identifying the best players, is not serving to identify the best players at this moment in time.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022:

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #271 on: November 28, 2022, 07:58:04 PM »
Exactly. It rather feels like the OWGR is mainly serving selected tours rather than trying to identify the best players.
Oh geez. The OWGR's governing board:

Quote
GOVERNING BOARD
Chairman - Peter Dawson CBE
Augusta National Golf Club - Will Jones, Executive Director
PGA European Tour - Keith Pelley, Chief Executive
PGA of America - Seth Waugh, Chief Executive Officer
PGA Tour - Jay Monahan, Commissioner
The R&A - Martin Slumbers, Chief Executive
USGA - Mike Whan, Chief Executive Officer
International Federation of PGA Tours - Keith Waters

Of course the OWGR is set up to help the TOURS. The LIV Tour hasn't even come remotely close to meeting the conditions set forth by the OWGR.

If the OWGR wants to be the premier ranking system
It isn't? What is, then? What's the competition? What's the "premier ranking system" ahead of the OWGR?

it must be much quicker in reacting to the changing landscape of pro golf.
No, it "mustn't." Clearly.

What is the point of time delays when everyone knows some of the best players play on Tour which is excluded.
By their own freaking choice.

Falling back on rules, most of which are questionable in terms of their absolute necessity in identifying the best players, is not serving to identify the best players at this moment in time.
Oy.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #272 on: November 28, 2022, 08:45:43 PM »
A lot of talk about owgr and the tours getting points


Seems if we’re rating players, which is what they’re supposed to be doing, the event and field
Should matter most, not the tour it’s on.


The big tours want to keep LIV from this.  And they’ve already succeeded some.  Many of the LIV members rankings have gone down enough to impact the field values already, every month they can fight it impacts its more.

This isn’t about rules of OwGr. This is a battle for control

Exactly. It rather feels like the OWGR is mainly serving selected tours rather than trying to identify the best players. If the OWGR wants to be the premier ranking system it must be much quicker in reacting to the changing landscape of pro golf. What is the point of time delays when everyone knows some of the best players play on Tour which is excluded. Falling back on rules, most of which are questionable in terms of their absolute necessity in identifying the best players, is not serving to identify the best players at this moment in time.

Ciao


As DL3 said recently, “why do we even need the OWGR”?
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #273 on: November 28, 2022, 08:49:25 PM »
Erik, not trolling you, asking a question. In your opinion what purpose does the OWGR really serve? How do they help the tours? It started in 1986.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2022, 09:59:20 PM by Rob Marshall »
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #274 on: November 28, 2022, 09:45:34 PM »
Is Cameron Smith the best Australian golfer since Peter Thomsen?
I don't know, but he spent a good chunk of 2022 beating nobodies at events like the Tournament of Champions, Players, and Open Championship, so its hard to say how good he was this year.

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