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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #125 on: October 31, 2022, 11:28:25 AM »
Kalen


You certainly cared enough to post on the team results on the recent Maidstone thread  ;)


Niall

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2022, 11:33:13 AM »
Kalen

You certainly cared enough to post on the team results on the recent Maidstone thread  ;)

Niall


Damn it Niall, you got me!  ;D

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #127 on: October 31, 2022, 11:48:57 AM »
Formula 1 has had team racing for years.
Do you know what team wins every week or do you only know what individual crosses the finishing line first?


The ONLY team victory I have EVER been aware of in motor sports is the 1967 LeMans race only becuase I loved the movie "Ford vs Ferrari"...;-)



Ian


Apologies for being a smartarse but the film was called "Le Mans '66" over here for a very good reason !


I do take your point though but then I'm not much of a petrol head although those that are know very well who drives for what team and what difference that makes. The other thing is that there are only two drivers for each team and usually one is the designated no. 1 and the second driver more or less is a back-up therefore the top driver pretty well is the team.


That said, I tend to think that perhaps football (the real football) is a better example. Does everyone know who Messi is or Ronaldo ? You bet they do, but they also have their own team that they support, often for reasons that can be a bit spurious but once you support a team.......


Niall

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #128 on: October 31, 2022, 11:51:34 AM »
That said, I tend to think that perhaps football (the real football) is a better example. Does everyone know who Messi is or Ronaldo ? You bet they do, but they also have their own team that they support, often for reasons that can be a bit spurious but once you support a team.......
🤦🏼‍♂️
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #129 on: October 31, 2022, 12:08:33 PM »

"The (LIV Tour) is a like a mail-order bra. While it is designed to lift and separate, it only draws attention to the cleavage."


then VIVA LES TROIS TETONS!


Doesn't F1 racing have a major ARAMCO sponsorship deal?  And what ever happened to Colin Chapman's Team Lotus, used to love watching Jimmy Clark tool around and outsmart others?  Didn't they just get to the point of not producing any success on the F1 circuit, and fade away??


It seems like the high school and college team golfers will have more interest in LIV stuff, more relatable to their direct experience...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #130 on: October 31, 2022, 12:12:54 PM »
Niall -

Yes, pro sports teams in the U.S. relocate every once in a while. In addition, the pro leagues add one or two new team franchises to their leagues maybe once every 10 or 20 years. And yes, it can take a while for the relocated or new teams to gain a sizable fan base.

But all this takes place in leagues of team sports that have existed for 50 to 100 or more years, where there are already 10 to 30 teams operating with a history of financial success, an established fan base and ongoing media exposure.

DT

p.s. Even though there are college golf teams competing in the U.S., strokeplay tournaments constitute the vast majority of the competition. As far as I know, there is only one event (the NCAA team championship) where a select number of teams compete in a head-to-head, matchplay format. 

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #131 on: October 31, 2022, 12:18:13 PM »
It seems like the high school and college team golfers will have more interest in LIV stuff, more relatable to their direct experience...
IF high school and college golfers have more interest, it's much more likely because it's on YouTube and because they've never really been "traditional TV watchers" like older golf watchers. My college team players couldn't care less about any pro golf outside of liking maybe Jordan Spieth or Rory or something.

If you're comparing team golf to other sports, TEAM sports, just stop. They're not the same.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #132 on: November 03, 2022, 03:00:05 PM »
Somewhat related....

As much as I'm not a fan of Bubba, he does make a valid point here.  The lines are certainly grey...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bubba-watson-i-was-paid-to-play-in-pga-tour-events/ar-AA13FV1s?cvid=b32e875dcb5e42df900b7c8338dc2e9d

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #133 on: November 03, 2022, 05:09:46 PM »
Th sponsors of the whole LIV thing have given me pause from the get-go.


The Saudis are questionable allies with possible volatility there going forward. One day, they may not be allies. That should be a horrendous red flag for anyone.


It's a toxic convergence of Greg Norman's 30 year vendetta against the PGA Tour and an oil-rich nation investing its profits reaped from the backs of the people it seeks to attract.


If Tom Watson tried to do the same thing and had Blackstone as well as other marquee investors, then maybe it has sustainability.
But, as the geo-political climate shifts, so may the fortunes of this LIV experiment.


And if shit goes sideways with the Saudis, if you're affiliated with LIV, I dont think you can rinse that kind of stink off  no matter the size of your wallet.


Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #134 on: November 03, 2022, 08:30:05 PM »
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #135 on: November 03, 2022, 09:09:54 PM »
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.


Bubba knows that…..
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #136 on: November 03, 2022, 11:38:55 PM »
Let’s keep the lowest score wins thing. No moral judgements.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #137 on: November 04, 2022, 03:41:17 AM »
Let’s keep the lowest score wins thing. No moral judgements.

For sure. People fail to realize that nobody in the US is free from moral judgement.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #138 on: November 04, 2022, 08:44:51 AM »
Let’s keep the lowest score wins thing. No moral judgements.

For sure. People fail to realize that nobody in the US is free from moral judgement.

Ciao


Europe is different?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #139 on: November 04, 2022, 11:18:03 AM »
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Bubba knows that…..


Yes he does know that...

However, as I understand the rule from the PGA, players aren't allowed to take money from anyone to play an event.  Full stop. 

"The PGA Tour reiterated to ESPN that it "prohibits the payment of appearance money to players as an inducement to play in a particular tournament." 

If this only applies to the PGA Tour, then they should be more specific.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #140 on: November 04, 2022, 11:59:51 AM »
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Bubba knows that…..


Yes he does know that...

However, as I understand the rule from the PGA, players aren't allowed to take money from anyone to play an event.  Full stop. 

"The PGA Tour reiterated to ESPN that it "prohibits the payment of appearance money to players as an inducement to play in a particular tournament." 

If this only applies to the PGA Tour, then they should be more specific.


Kalen,
If have a Buick logo on your bag. Buick is going to expect you to play in the Buick open. They are probably also going to expect you to mingle with their guests. You get paid to do that. That is not the same as an appearance fee.


Bubba IMO is trying to mislead, which is why Kevin Kisner called him out. Bubba likes to paint a picture of himself which doesn't go along with his actions. We've seen it his entire career.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #141 on: November 04, 2022, 12:04:56 PM »
I guess what (also) kills me is that the LIV squad basically expects that the incumbent "golf world" will simply bend to their will because the Saudis have a a trillion dollars and they bribed some top talent to come over.


If their events resembled the tours approved under the OWGR, then there would NOT be an issue with points.
But, even on this point, the LIVers expect the world to change for them.


- 54 holes instead of 72 (Of course Norman loves this as he is one of the worst 4th round closers in golf history.)
- Shot gun start with no cut and no ability for others to qualify.
-  field of 48 instead of 150+
- Team format that may alter player strategies.
- Use of distance measuring devices


BUT, if they sign Cantlay and Shauffele, and even Rickie, then their league will have grown, but their case against points will stay the same.


It will still be complaining, but LOUDER... ;D ;D

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #142 on: November 04, 2022, 12:42:49 PM »
Is it possible to be a fan of both the PGA and LIV? I consider myself a fan of both, as each brings something unique and different to the professional game and sport, OWGR points aside. I am also excited to see what Tiger and Rory have cooked up for their arena golf venture and how that will be structured. There haven't been much details or talk of it since it was first announced, but from all accounts they are moving forward with it and I believe have LeBron James on board as an investor.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #143 on: November 04, 2022, 01:02:58 PM »
Let’s keep the lowest score wins thing. No moral judgements.

For sure. People fail to realize that nobody in the US is free from moral judgement.

Ciao

Europe is different?

It's certainly very similar in the UK. It seems to be a that the more powerful a country the more hypocritical its citizens will be about dealing with despicable governments who can provide desirable commodities or services.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #144 on: November 04, 2022, 02:53:04 PM »
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Bubba knows that…..


Yes he does know that...

However, as I understand the rule from the PGA, players aren't allowed to take money from anyone to play an event.  Full stop. 

"The PGA Tour reiterated to ESPN that it "prohibits the payment of appearance money to players as an inducement to play in a particular tournament." 

If this only applies to the PGA Tour, then they should be more specific.

Kalen,
If have a Buick logo on your bag. Buick is going to expect you to play in the Buick open. They are probably also going to expect you to mingle with their guests. You get paid to do that. That is not the same as an appearance fee.

Bubba IMO is trying to mislead, which is why Kevin Kisner called him out. Bubba likes to paint a picture of himself which doesn't go along with his actions. We've seen it his entire career.

Rob,

100% agreed with that scenario.

But what if Bubba has a smaller sponsor, which isn't the headline Tour event sponsor.  And they're having a corporate retreat that aligns with a different 2nd tier tourney that Bubba had no intention of playing otherwise.

This sponsor pays him extra to come out and participate in a few meet and greets and since he's already there, enters the tourney (which at that point is an almost explicit expectation anyways).  He is effectively being paid to show up and play that tournament, even if its not the only thing, and that's what I believe he was referencing with this statement: ""I miss the cut, I still make money. I make the cut, I make extra money."

And don't get me wrong, I have zero issue with this arrangement, but technically it violates the spirit of the PGA Rule of no appearance fees.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 02:56:18 PM by Kalen Braley »

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #145 on: November 04, 2022, 03:26:15 PM »
Kalen, your sponsor paying you to show up at an event to promote their product is quite a lot different than the PGA Tour giving you money to show up.

Bubba knows that…..


Yes he does know that...

However, as I understand the rule from the PGA, players aren't allowed to take money from anyone to play an event.  Full stop. 

"The PGA Tour reiterated to ESPN that it "prohibits the payment of appearance money to players as an inducement to play in a particular tournament." 

If this only applies to the PGA Tour, then they should be more specific.

Kalen,
If have a Buick logo on your bag. Buick is going to expect you to play in the Buick open. They are probably also going to expect you to mingle with their guests. You get paid to do that. That is not the same as an appearance fee.

Bubba IMO is trying to mislead, which is why Kevin Kisner called him out. Bubba likes to paint a picture of himself which doesn't go along with his actions. We've seen it his entire career.

Rob,

100% agreed with that scenario.

But what if Bubba has a smaller sponsor, which isn't the headline Tour event sponsor.  And they're having a corporate retreat that aligns with a different 2nd tier tourney that Bubba had no intention of playing otherwise.

This sponsor pays him extra to come out and participate in a few meet and greets and since he's already there, enters the tourney (which at that point is an almost explicit expectation anyways).  He is effectively being paid to show up and play that tournament, even if its not the only thing, and that's what I believe he was referencing with this statement: ""I miss the cut, I still make money. I make the cut, I make extra money."

And don't get me wrong, I have zero issue with this arrangement, but technically it violates the spirit of the PGA Rule of no appearance fees.


Has happened a long time

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #146 on: November 04, 2022, 03:46:49 PM »
Anyone that thinks the top players on the PGA Tour aren't taking money and gifts from tournament sponsors to show up and play at their events needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Not so much Tier 1 tournaments, such as Riviera, Bay Hill, Memorial, etc., but tier 2 and below. We're not talking title sponsored players who are obligated to play in these events either, but non-title sponsored players.


Take the Rocket Mortgate Classic, for example. Rickie Fowler, Bubba Watson and Bryson DeChambeau (before he left for LIV) were all Rocket Mortgage sponsored players. Thus, as part of their contract obligation, they were required to show up to a tournament they probably didn't really want to play all that bad given where it was held and where it fell on the calendar. Unfortunately for Rocket Mortgage (Quicken Loans), the three of them alone aren't enough to attract significant enough interest in the event from locals in and around the Detroit area (myself included) and potential corporate suite sponsors, so they paid any number of non-Rocket Mortgage sponsored golfers to commit to playing their event, e.g. Cantlay, Finau, Hideki, Scott, Homa, Zalatoris, etc. That's the only way these secondary tournaments can make it, as it at least gives the appearance to prospective fans and corporate suite holders that they are fielding a legitimate, high-level professional golf tournament. To think otherwise is being disingnueous and for as much as I and others don't care for Bubba Watson the player/person, he speaks the truth regarding the Tours dirty underbelly that's been in existence for years, if not decades.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #147 on: November 04, 2022, 04:58:49 PM »
hope it was declared taxable income

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #148 on: November 04, 2022, 05:19:39 PM »
hope it was declared taxable income
My guess is they're paid in cash so they can avoid declaring it and exposing themselves to fines and sanctions from the PGA Tour for rules violations.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #149 on: November 04, 2022, 05:37:49 PM »
Mike the Tour fessed up to it today.  That reads vague enough to suggest a tournament sponsor could do this on a one-off basis, where the people at home wouldn't even know cause the logo won't show up on the apparel like a typical sponsor arrangement.  But it certainly seems to confirm what Bubba said.

“We are aware that certain tournament sponsors may contract with a player to perform a sponsor-related activity during tournament week for which they receive nominal compensation. This is permissible under our guidelines,” the PGA Tour’s statement to ESPN said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/bubba-watson-says-he-was-paid-behind-closed-doors-to-play-pga-tour-events/ar-AA13KzNj?cvid=ef8d4fc0e21d489084451a574ecf8dca