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Ian Mackenzie

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OWGR and LIV golfers
« on: September 20, 2022, 04:00:35 PM »

Apparently all 50 LIV players signed some sort of written "request" for OWGR points for these 54 hole, no-cut exhibitions they put in every few weeks.to a Peter Dawson who is chief of the OWGR.
Another example of wanting it both ways even though they knew what would happen but the lure of the fat liquidity event was just too much. In the letter they cite:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/golf/2022/09/20/liv-golfers-call-immediate-world-ranking-points-rebel-series/

LIV golfers call for immediate world ranking points for rebel series events
"An OWGR without LIV would be incomplete and inaccurate, the equivalent of leaving the Big 10 or the SEC out of the US college football rankings, or leaving Belgium, Argentina, and England out of the Fifa rankingsÖ We call on you to render a positive decision quickly."

Perhaps accurate if:

1. The Big 10 or SEC played only a 3 quarters instead of 4...;-)....a game of 45 minutes instead of 60.
2. Argentina played England in a match of only 67.5 minutes instead of 90.
3. There were no tryouts for the team or risk and tension of NOT being able to play - and get paid - unless you performed well.
4. Nobody really knew what you needed to score to win. The game would just end and you look up at a scoreboard and IT tells you if you won or not.

I dont begrudge the LIV players who did a classic "Steve Miller Band" play and took the money and ran. But, fellas, man the F up and own your decision and stop trying to butter your bread on both sides! According to El Jefe White Shark, the LIV tour is viable and not interested in discussions with the PGA or DP tours.

How can you have comparable OWGR points when the two "tours" are playing a substantially different game?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 04:09:21 PM by Ian Mackenzie »

jeffwarne

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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2022, 04:07:26 PM »
I translated that last bit for everyone from the OP!   ;D

----------------------------------------------------


Perhaps accurate if:

1) The Big 10 or SEC played only a 3 quarters instead of 4...;-)....a game of 45 minutes instead of 60.
2. Argentina played England in a match of only 67.5 minutes instead of 90.
3. There were no tryouts for the team or risk and tension of NOT being able to play - and get paid - unless you performed well.
4. Nobody really knew what you needed to score to win. The game would just end and you look up at a scoreboard and IT tells you if you won or not..

I dont begrudge the LIV players who did a classic "Steve Miller Band" play and took the money and ran. But, fellas, man the F up and own your decision and stop trying to butter your bread on both sides! According to El Jefe White Shark, the LIV tour is viable and not interested in discussions with the PGA or DP tours. Apparently, others agree with him. This fish stinks from its white head! Have your own "Masters" or wait on an INVITE from ANGC. Feel free to qualify for the US and British Opens. PGA? Sorry, you can have a LIV Championship.

OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2022, 04:11:10 PM »
I translated that last bit for everyone from the OP!   ;D

----------------------------------------------------


Perhaps accurate if:

1) The Big 10 or SEC played only a 3 quarters instead of 4...;-)....a game of 45 minutes instead of 60.
2. Argentina played England in a match of only 67.5 minutes instead of 90.
3. There were no tryouts for the team or risk and tension of NOT being able to play - and get paid - unless you performed well.
4. Nobody really knew what you needed to score to win. The game would just end and you look up at a scoreboard and IT tells you if you won or not..

I dont begrudge the LIV players who did a classic "Steve Miller Band" play and took the money and ran. But, fellas, man the F up and own your decision and stop trying to butter your bread on both sides! According to El Jefe White Shark, the LIV tour is viable and not interested in discussions with the PGA or DP tours. Apparently, others agree with him. This fish stinks from its white head! Have your own "Masters" or wait on an INVITE from ANGC. Feel free to qualify for the US and British Opens. PGA? Sorry, you can have a LIV Championship.

OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys.


It is really fatiguing how this cite messes with posts with the "Color/Size" paragraph nonsense.
Have been editing my OP for 10 mins and it is still not right.


Thanks, Kalen.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2022, 04:13:57 PM »
I translated that last bit for everyone from the OP!   ;D

----------------------------------------------------


Perhaps accurate if:

1) The Big 10 or SEC played only a 3 quarters instead of 4...;-)....a game of 45 minutes instead of 60.
2. Argentina played England in a match of only 67.5 minutes instead of 90.
3. There were no tryouts for the team or risk and tension of NOT being able to play - and get paid - unless you performed well.
4. Nobody really knew what you needed to score to win. The game would just end and you look up at a scoreboard and IT tells you if you won or not..

I dont begrudge the LIV players who did a classic "Steve Miller Band" play and took the money and ran. But, fellas, man the F up and own your decision and stop trying to butter your bread on both sides! According to El Jefe White Shark, the LIV tour is viable and not interested in discussions with the PGA or DP tours. Apparently, others agree with him. This fish stinks from its white head! Have your own "Masters" or wait on an INVITE from ANGC. Feel free to qualify for the US and British Opens. PGA? Sorry, you can have a LIV Championship.

OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys.

It is really fatiguing how this cite messes with posts with the "Color/Size" paragraph nonsense.
Have been editing my OP for 10 mins and it is still not right.

Thanks, Kalen.


Not a problem Ian,

One trick to try next time is copy it into a plain text notepad document, get rid of all the braces, and when you save it, any remaining formatting will be gone.  Then you can copy it back into a post.

Good luck!

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2022, 04:24:10 PM »
"OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys."                                       

Kalen -   You nailed it. Thanks!   DT
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 04:28:39 PM by David_Tepper »

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2022, 04:25:41 PM »
"OWGR points? NO, and a hard NO as LIV golfers are playing an abbreviated spoiled man's pussy tour. Count your money, boys. Hope it buys you happiness. But, for all the money they are making, they sure are an angry bunch of rich guys."
Kalen -You nailed it. Thanks!
DT


That was my line, David...;-)
Kalen saw I was having tech issues...;-) I was editing my post with all the isses and Kalen pasted that from an edit that i deleted...;-)

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2022, 04:36:12 PM »
If the LIV tour switches to 90 hole events next year, would you recommend giving them more OWGR points than the PGA tour? 

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2022, 04:49:38 PM »
From the messages between Sergio and GN we know that he promised Sergio that "They can't ban you for a day, much less forever. "


One has to guess that Norman and the LIV lawyers told everyone that the tours would never get away with bans.


And that OWGR just had to give points with all you great players in the LIV system.


You can hear it in the talking points. Phil just said, "The PGATour will never again have all the best players."


Somebody is crafting that kind of messaging.


FWIW,  I think the PGA Tour is potentially creating a problem by listening to Tiger and Rory re. the elevated events.


Unless they're not dominated by US locations they'll screw players like Rahm and Fitzgerald...making Norman look generous.


And if they inevitably widen the income gap between the "top" players and the peasants then how do we know if they're still the top players?


It's the biggest flaw LIV has IMHO.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2022, 05:08:04 PM »
If the LIV tour switches to 90 hole events next year, would you recommend giving them more OWGR points than the PGA tour?


I would recommend following the standards used by the OWGR itself.
Currently, they create their rankings from players who compete in 72 hole events. They list 23 Tours.


Male tours play 72 hole events. Your hypothetical question is irrelevant. LIV guys play a watered-down interpretation of what is needed to get OWGR points.


LIV is the ultmate exlusive club not open to these other 23 tours. In fact, you can readily kicked out of it if Emir bin Norman says so. It has been created on its own, stole players (legally) from these tours and now whines daily about how it can't have its benefits.


what a petulant, snot-nosed  bunch of Trusta-Farian A-Holes.


The answer is "No".


Oh, and BTW, they are suing some the founding organizations of the OWGR while asking for its mercy.


Ive never heard of such arrogance.

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Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2022, 05:16:22 PM »


You can hear it in the talking points. Phil just said, "The PGATour will never again have all the best players."


Somebody is crafting that kind of messaging.



I think that can be said TODAY. The LIV dudes could just look at the OWGR rankings and cherry pick who they wanted to offer 7-8 figures to. That is NOT a sustainable model.


Plus, it works well (for the House of Saud) when oil was at $125+ when this mess all started.
Watch what happens when oil falls and their business model is pressured to actually sustain itself.


Oil is below $90 today.
It was $40 just two years ago.


How patient will the Saudis really be?

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2022, 06:15:02 PM »


You can hear it in the talking points. Phil just said, "The PGATour will never again have all the best players."


Somebody is crafting that kind of messaging.





I think that can be said TODAY. The LIV dudes could just look at the OWGR rankings and cherry pick who they wanted to offer 7-8 figures to. That is NOT a sustainable model.


Plus, it works well (for the House of Saud) when oil was at $125+ when this mess all started.
Watch what happens when oil falls and their business model is pressured to actually sustain itself.


Oil is below $90 today.
It was $40 just two years ago.


How patient will the Saudis really be?


YouTube streaming pays about $0.50 per 1,000 viewers.


LIV Golf averaged 50k for Chicago.


Enjoy the $25, Greg... only $19,999,975 short on the prize pool on this one

John Kavanaugh

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2022, 06:47:22 PM »
Why so angry? Even the NFL is streaming games on Amazon.

Daryl David

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2022, 07:06:55 PM »
Why so angry? Even the NFL is streaming games on Amazon.


Exactly. Why all the hate?  Let them play wherever they want for whatever amount of holes they want.  No one is making anyone watch or care about it. Live and let live.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2022, 07:31:52 PM »
Putting the unattractiveness of LIV aside, does it make sense for the professional world of golf to have a gatekeeper (the OWGR) that consists of all the incumbents? 


Why isn't the OWGR an independent body? 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2022, 07:47:23 PM »
Saturday I got home from golfing my own ball and needed some dead time to unwind. Went to YouTube and watched the last 30 mins of LIV. Cam vs DJ with a taste of Pat Perez. The shotgun start is the best thing I have ever seen from strictly an entertainment perspective. Betting on the team event as opposed to individuals is what makes me tick. Just got a Four Aces tattoo on my virtual ass.

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2022, 08:04:59 PM »
Why so angry? Even the NFL is streaming games on Amazon.


So questioning the viability of a business when it's clearly doomed to fail is "angry"?


Huh?


You do realize the NFL on Amazon is a completely different business model, right (and drew millions of viewers?)


https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/20/amazon-thursday-night-football-nfl-stream-draws-record-prime-signups.html

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2022, 08:18:43 PM »
The LIV is not doomed to failure. Do you think that when they started there was any hope of signing the Open Champion this soon? I am amazed at how well it is going.


Yes I know the NFL is a different model. Amazon didnít look bright either paying 13B.


I thought Magic overpaid for the Dodgers. ďHow muchĒ is a farce created to make stupid people think that elitism is a disease. 

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2022, 08:44:18 PM »
If the LIV tour switches to 90 hole events next year, would you recommend giving them more OWGR points than the PGA tour?
Ok, forget the number of holes for a moment.


Do you know of any no-cut shotgun start events in which many of the players are apparently not playing for actual prize money until they reach their guarantee that currently receive ranking points? 


As to the number of holes, surely you arenít suggesting that itís as easy to win a 72 hole event as it is a 54 hole event.  Greg Norman is NOT a Masters champion because he had to play the 4th round. And there are LOTS of others throughout golf history.  I know that you know this.


Play the same format as other professional golf tournaments.  If you donít, expect to be treated differently.  Itís the way life works.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

John Kavanaugh

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2022, 08:51:20 PM »
Ask yourself if you were tasked to define the best golfers in the world would you include the Champion Golfer of that said world? As far as the number of holes in any given tournament itís only the last nine that matters. If youíve never blown a lead youíd never get that.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2022, 08:57:53 PM »
Saturday I got home from golfing my own ball and needed some dead time to unwind. Went to YouTube and watched the last 30 mins of LIV. Cam vs DJ with a taste of Pat Perez. The shotgun start is the best thing I have ever seen from strictly an entertainment perspective. Betting on the team event as opposed to individuals is what makes me tick. Just got a Four Aces tattoo on my virtual ass.


Now that is something we'd all like for you to post, lol
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Craig Sweet

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Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2022, 09:27:06 PM »
The 54 Hole Tour thinks it's pretty special. 


Norman's ego is larger than a 54 Hole Tour field.  Thank god Chrissy Everett got out with limited trauma from living with that ass clown.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2022, 09:27:53 PM »
I appreciate Peter's line of questions here.

There was once a time in which major championships were determined after 36 holes on the final day. When they changed to 18 a day for 4 days there was a public backlash that the change was going to water down the challenge and reduce the number of "real" champions.

There was also a time in which major championship playoffs were 18 holes. When that rule was changed there was a public backlash that the change was going to water down the challenge and reduce the number of "real" champions.

There was also a time in which the British open was contested over 3, 12 hole round, the next year 2, 18 hole rounds, and the next year 4, 9 hole rounds.

The point being. 72 holes of stroke play over 4 days is somewhat arbitrary. Saying its the only way tournaments can be played is not historically accurate in the slightest. Assuming that golf should not or can not be played in a different format is not accurate and biased. Not wanting change is very different than not recognizing that change is possible, change has happened before, and change is likely to occur in the future.

Why is the 100m sprint the crown jewel of track and field and the 1600 meter is relegated to non-prime time?


Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2022, 09:34:48 PM »
When an event like Wentworth is reduced to 54 holes for extenuating circumstances, do they only earn 75% of their original OWGR points?

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OWGR and LIV golfers
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2022, 10:12:29 PM »
There are seven stated criteria that I've seen for OWGR points.  Not sure if they're the only 7, but of the seven I've seen, LIV has satisfied one.  That's it.  It's not a situation where they're going to OWGR and saying "we've done our best to comply, so given the unique situation, please fast-track our application".  They're saying "Hey, eff you guys, just give us points even though we have deliberately given the middle finger to your rules."  The rules exist and they weren't created or changed to discriminate against LIV.  LIV made the choice not to comply.


I have minor issues with things like 54 holes, no cut, no spots for local players.  I have a big problem with LIV's lack of discernible criteria for qualification.  I can turn on a PGA Tour event, and despite a handful of sponsors' exemptions, I know that every player teeing it up earned their spot in the field under the criteria established by the Tour.  You can argue that the Tour should change it's rules, that it allows too many older players in because of life memberships, or other earnings based exemptions.  There's a good argument to be made that a non-competitive Davis Love should not be in PGA Tour fields.  But the fact is that he has qualified under the Tour's rules. Meanwhile, Chase Koepka and Peter Uihlein have had years to prove that they do not belong in top tier competitive golf tournaments.  I don't know anyone getting into PGA Tour events based on who is in their family.  Combine that with small fields, which means much of the field is made up of guys who simply couldn't qualify for the PGA Tour, and, well, I'm not that impressed that Cam Smith and DJ can beat 12-15 good players and a bunch of tomato cans.

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