[Ian Andrew]

The Dilemma of Attribution

First off, there is a lot of really interesting pieces that have been linked, reported, or added through comments that definitely shed some light on his work. I’m grateful I started this thread for the gems that continue to appear. There are also some fascinating comments also on my blog where I posed the same question.

As the information began to come in I began to realize that this will demand a lot more time and energy to organize all the information than I have. It’s not collecting it, but beginning the important process of cross-referencing what has been presented. There is also a whole series of clubs with tentative connections to Thompson that have no references in old articles and magazines that would still require either research. That research would likely entail visits to review information to find out if the connection is conclusive. I certainly don’t have that time and I’m not really sure anyone else does either.

The other realization that came was I was quickly being placed in a position to make decisions on whether a club should be included or not. As I said to one of the other contributors on the phone, I don’t think I’m qualified to do this. So how fair would it be for me to include or not include a club until there is definitive proof. Since I can’t make the time to research this, the process would be flawed.

My original rally came from the number of mistakes on the current list and the inclusion of high profile courses where he only built a green or two. I think that it was important to say he worked at these courses, but it was more important for future architects to know what an original Stanley Thompson hole or course is.

The last thing that came up was what is the line between Thompson and not. The Summit debate is proof that this line is fairly subjective. Does he have to route at least nine holes? What if he didn’t route the course but rebuilt every feature? What if he did a major renovation to only the greens? What if he worked with someone else on the project? Most importantly, what if he built the course for another architect who made either one or two visits……or none?

I don’t know where to go from here, but I do have an interesting suggestion. I have a great deal of inside knowledge on particular Stanley Thompson courses. It seems like it would be more productive to post a full list as a base and invite people to post their conclusions through facts that they will also be required to provide. Then each of us interested in this process could leave comments under our name and slowly try to unravel the mystery of what is a Thompson course and what is not.

Food for thought.

[Tom Forsythe]

I never had the chance to play the original Green Gables layout.  As I understand it, a good chunk of the original Green Gables (and the best part of the course) was rerouted in the late 70's because of environmental concerns within the National Park.  It went through another renovation I believe in the late 80's or early 90's and the hole that played just in front of the Anne of Green Gables house(the 13th I think) was changed from a dog leg left into a really lousy dog leg right due to liability concerns.  A significant number of tourists used to walk onto that green to take pictures of Anne's house with no concern for the golfers playing into it. Probably 12 of the 18 holes are original.

[Gary Slatter]

The Dilemma of Attribution

First off, there is a lot of really interesting pieces that have been linked, reported, or added through comments that definitely shed some light on his work. I’m grateful I started this thread for the gems that continue to appear. There are also some fascinating comments also on my blog where I posed the same question.

As the information began to come in I began to realize that this will demand a lot more time and energy to organize all the information than I have. It’s not collecting it, but beginning the important process of cross-referencing what has been presented. There is also a whole series of clubs with tentative connections to Thompson that have no references in old articles and magazines that would still require either research. That research would likely entail visits to review information to find out if the connection is conclusive. I certainly don’t have that time and I’m not really sure anyone else does either.

The other realization that came was I was quickly being placed in a position to make decisions on whether a club should be included or not. As I said to one of the other contributors on the phone, I don’t think I’m qualified to do this. So how fair would it be for me to include or not include a club until there is definitive proof. Since I can’t make the time to research this, the process would be flawed.

My original rally came from the number of mistakes on the current list and the inclusion of high profile courses where he only built a green or two. I think that it was important to say he worked at these courses, but it was more important for future architects to know what an original Stanley Thompson hole or course is.

The last thing that came up was what is the line between Thompson and not. The Summit debate is proof that this line is fairly subjective. Does he have to route at least nine holes? What if he didn’t route the course but rebuilt every feature? What if he did a major renovation to only the greens? What if he worked with someone else on the project? Most importantly, what if he built the course for another architect who made either one or two visits……or none?

I don’t know where to go from here, but I do have an interesting suggestion. I have a great deal of inside knowledge on particular Stanley Thompson courses. It seems like it would be more productive to post a full list as a base and invite people to post their conclusions through facts that they will also be required to provide. Then each of us interested in this process could leave comments under our name and slowly try to unravel the mystery of what is a Thompson course and what is not.

Food for thought.

Great work Ian - I wonder how some of the Ross Courses are Ross Courses as he couldn't have been involved too often in many of them.  Have you ever met Stanley Thompson, a golf pro who still lives in the family home in Cabbagetown? great guy and a relative I think, he must be around 65 years old.

[Don McFaul]

Just a correction for SBusch

Lachute Golf Club # 2 was designed by Howard Watson and #1 was Designed by Stanley Thompson.

[Ian Andrew]

I've returned back to this task after some MAJOR help from Jim Barclay, the author of the Toronto Terror. Robert Thompson and I plan to go through all his notes and our own to begin a base file from which a group can work from. The idea was to clearly identify what is known and what still required research.

Since there are quite a few of you who offered assistance initially I will eventually ask for some more help from you along the way. I would ask anyone who can offer information on Thompson's work, particularly in the United Staes, to contact me or leave a note here on the site.

Thanks.

Ian Andrew

[BCrosby]

Ian -

What do you know about Thompson's involvement at Hyde Park in Jacksonville? I have heard that the course is really by Thompson and that the Ross attribution may be in error.

Bob    

[Tom Roewer]

bob: Cornish & whitten attribute the design to Ross in 1925 and remodel by Thompson.  On page 198 in The Toronto Terror is referenxce.  It's a great book to have if you don't already - it's byJames A. Barclay.

[BCrosby]

Thanks Tom. Damn. Another book to buy.

[Ian Andrew]

Bob,

You asked: "What do you know about Thompson's involvement at Hyde Park in Jacksonville? I have heard that the course is really by Thompson and that the Ross attribution may be in error."

The Saturday Evening post, published in 1946, had an interview with Stanley Thompson conducted by John LaCerda.
The folowing exceprpt is from the article

“While in Florida Thompson built the Nealhurst and Hyde Park courses in Jacksonville and the Florindale club in Milford”

[Ian Andrew]

Robert Thompson and I have been working diligently on that list for a few weeks; we are fairly close to having all the known research put together in one easy to use file.

We plan to post something on here, and then distribute the full file of research and references to people who have indicated their desire to continue the effort to tie up lose ends that we have found.

We appreciate any help that anyone can offer.

[Chris Parker]

“While in Florida Thompson built the Nealhurst and Hyde Park courses in Jacksonville and the Florindale club in Milford”

Ian,

Concerning Floridale, check out this thread I started in January 2006:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=21425;start=msg388681#msg388681

[BCrosby]

Ian -

Is the 1946 quotation reliable? Does that suggest to you that the Ross attribution for Hyde Park is in error? Or is it Thompson padding his portfolio?

Hyde Park is an interesting course. It doesn't feel like a Ross course to me. But then once you got Ross out of the SE piedmont area he did some very different stuff.

Bob  

 

[Ian Andrew]

Bob,

Referenced in June 1926 CG advertisement as courses “designed” by Stanley Thompson. So is Neilhurst.

Interestingly enough Florindale is not on that list.

Nov. 1924 Candian Golfer refers to Thompson heading to Florida to build a course for Cleveland businessmen.

I wish I had a definative answer, but I do not.

Ian

[Ian Andrew]

To this date and with the information we currently possess, this is the current listing of courses that should be credited as designed by Stanley Thomson. There other remodellings and even courses in question not on the list, but these course have information available to confirm their place.

The contributors are all listed at the bottom and all have worked together to produce the list.

1920

Muskoka Lakes GC (Port Carling, Ont.)
Summit G & CC w/ George Cumming (Richmond Hill, Ont.)

1921

Bigwin Island GC (Huntsville, Ont.) NLE
The Briars Golf & Country Club, Nine holes (Jackson’s Point, Ont.)
Highland G & CC w/George Cumming (London, Ont.)
North Bay (9 holes) (North Bay, Ont.)

1922
Niakwa G&CC (Winnipeg, Man)
Halifax (Old Asburn) (Halifax, NS)
Lingan  (9 holes) (Sydney, NS)
Burlington G&CC (Burlington, Ont)
Cedar Brook G&CC (Scarborough, Ont.)
Cedarhurst GC  (9 holes) (Beaverton, Ont.)
Lake Shore GC (Toronto, Ont) NLE
Shore Acres GC (Scarborough, Ont.) NLE
St. Thomas G &CC (Union, Ont.)
Thornhill G&CC (Richmond Hill, Ont.)
Uplands GC (Richmond Hill, Ont.) 9 holes NLE

1923
Couchiching GC (9 holes) (Orillia, Ont.)
Fort William CC (Thunder Bay, Ont)
Islington G&CC (Toronto, Ont.)
Kenora G &CC (Kenora, Ont.)
Queen Victoria Park (Niagara Falls, Ont.) (NLE)
Marlborough GC (Montreal, Que.) (NLE)
Sleepy Hollow GC (Cleveland, Ohio) (U.S.)

1924

Jasper Park GC (Jasper, Alberta)
Big Pay Point GC (Barrie, Ont.)
Erie Downs (Bridgewater GC) (Fort Erie, Ont.)
Ladies Golf Club of Toronto (Richmond Hill, Ont.)
Minaki Inn (9 holes) (Minaki, Ont.) (NLE)
Three Rivers (Ki-8-Eb) (Trois Rivieres, Que.)
Neilhurst GC (Jacksonville, Florida) (NLE)
Squaw Creek G&CC (Yongestown,  Ohio)

1925

Saugeen Golf Club (Nine holes) (Port Elgin, Ont.)
St. Andrews GC (Toronto, Ont.)
Royal Regina G&CC (Regina, Sask.)
Floridale GC (Jacksonville, Florida) (NLE)
Hyde Park GC (Jacksonville, Florida)
Beachmont G&CC (Cleveland, Ohio)
Chagrin Valley GC (Cleveland, Ohio)
Geneva-on-the-Lake GC (Geneva-on-the-Lake, Ohio)
Florindale GC, Milford, Florida (NLE)

1926
Huntsville Downs GC (Huntsville, Ont.)
Big Met GC (Cleveland, Ohio)
Oakdale G&CC (Toronto, Ont.)
Orchard Beach GC (Nine holes) (Keswick, Ont.)
St. Catharine’s G and CC (St. Catharines, Ont.)

1927
Banff Springs GC (Banff, Alberta)
Royal Mayfair GC (Edmonton, Alberta)
Little Met GC (Nine Holes) (Cleveland, Ohio)
Richford Frontier Club (Richford, Vermont) (NLE)

1928
Allandale GC (Nine holes) (Barrie, Ont.)
St. George’s G&CC (Toronto, Ont.)

1929
Prince Rupert GC (Prince Rupert, B.C.) (NLE)
Digby Pines Golf Course (Digby, N.S.)
Dundas Valley G&CC (Dundas, Ont.)
Sir Harry Oakes Estate Course (20 Holes) (Niagara Falls, Ont.) (NLE)
Oshawa G&CC (Oshawa, Ont.)
Peterborough G&CC (Peterborough, Ont.)
Galt CC (Cambridge, Ont.)
Westmount G&CC (Kitchener, Ont.)
Le Chateau Montebello GC (Montebello, Que.)
Constant Springs GC (Kingston, Jamaica)

1930
Aurora Highlands GC (Aurora, Ont.) (NLE)
Brockville G&CC (Added nine holes) (Brockville, Ont.)
Cataraqui G&CC (Kingston, Ont.)
Glen Mawr GC (Toronto, Ont.) (NLE)
Willowdale Golf Club (Toronto, Ont.) (NLE)

Mount Royal GC (Montreal, Que.) (NLE)

1931
Kawartha G&CC (Peterborough, Ont.)

1932
Capilano G&CC (North Vancouver, B.C.)
Woodbine GC (Toronto, Ont.) NLE
Sao Paulo GC (Sao Paulo, Brazil)
Gavea GC (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil)

1933
Muskoka Sands (9 holes) (Gravenhurst, Ont.)
Noranda GC  (9 holes) (Rouyn-Noranda, Que.)
Sunningdale G&CC (London, Ont.)
Itanhanga (Rio de Janeiro, Brazil)
Waterdown GC (Waterdown, Ont.) (NLE)

1935
Rockway Golf Club (Kitchener, Ont.)
Teresopolis GC (Teresopolis, Brazil)

1937
Kenogamisis GC (Nine holes) (Geraldton, Ont.)
Norway Bay GC (Nine holes) (Norway Bay, Que.)

1938
Highlands Links  (Ingonish, N.S.)
Green Gables GC (Cavendish, PEI)

1941
Beaconsfield GC (11 new holes, remaining holes Willie Park Jr.) (Pointe Clair, Que.)

1946
San Andres (36 holes) (San Andres, Columbia)

1947
Lachute GC (Lachute, Que.)
Saguenay D’Arvida GC (Saguenay-Lac-Saint-Jean, Que.)
Glendale G&CC (Winnipeg, Man.)

1948
Whirlpool GC (Niagara Falls, Ont.)
Lockport GC (Nine holes) (Lockport, N.Y.)

1949
Fundy National Park (9 holes) (Fundy National Park, N.B.)
North Oaks G&CC (North Oaks, Minnesota)
Moncton Golf Club (Moncton, N.B.)
Peninsula GC (9 holes) (Marathon, Ont.)

1950
Chedoke GC (New Course) (Hamilton, Ont.)

1951
Watertown Lakes (Watertown Lakes, Alberta)


 
Contributors
 
Jim Barclay
Tyler Kearns
Robert Thompson
Ken Donovan
Tom MacWood
Jeff Mingay
Gary Slatter
Chris Parker
Greg Murphy
Mickey Boyle
Geoff Cornish
Micheal J Hudson
Ian Andrew

[Wayne_Kozun]

I had no idea he did courses in Brazil.  Any idea how much of Thompson remains?

[Ian Andrew]

Today I received a contact for someone working in Brazil, who was suggested as a good resource to confirm what was done and what is left. I'll follow that up in the next few weeks when I have some more time.

The best part of this is how much people have pooled together to help get the initial list; or as Gary Slatter said when the research file was sent to all the contributors:

I think it was US President Harry Truman who said “It’s amazing what you can accomplish , if you don’t care who gets the credit”.

 

[Wayne_Kozun]

According to the website of Ithanhanga the first 9 holes of the course were inaugurated in 1935 and were designed by Canadian Stanley Thompson of the firm Thompson and Jones.  It doesn't mention when the second nine was opened, nor the designer.

According to other web sites Gavea was designed by Arthur Morgan Davidson in 1921 although the Gavea web site doesn't appear to mention a GCA and perhaps Thompson redesigned and expanded the course.

[Sven Nilsen]

There has probably been a good bit of knowledge added to what we know about Stanley Thompson since this old thread was started back in 2007.  I have a couple of updates I'm going to add in as this seemed the best place to include them.

First, I have always seen Sleepy Hollow credited solely as a Thompson course.  From the sounds of the article below, Harry Bandy and Howard Hollinger should receive credit for the first nine holes.  How much of their original design remains today is a question, but by the sounds of the 1924 article below much of the existing course was left in place when Thompson, along with Harry Lewis, added 9 holes.

Dec. 7, 1919 Cleveland Plain Dealer -



Oct. 17, 1920 Cleveland Plain Dealer -



March 27, 1921 Cleveland Plain Dealer -



April 13, 1924 Cleveland Plain Dealer -



Sept. 15, 1929 Cleveland Plain Dealer -



April 24, 1938 Cleveland Plain Dealer -

[Sven Nilsen]

Ian's list above notes "Beachmont" in 1925.

The course was actually known as Beechmont Country Club, and work on the course seemingly starting in Aug. of 1923.  Sleepy Hollow is often noted as Thompson's first U.S. design, but there might be room to suggest it was Beechmont or Chagrin Valley, all of which he seems to have been working on around the same time.

Nov. 20, 1923 Cleveland Plain Dealer -



May 4, 1924 Cleveland Plain Dealer -



Feb. 28, 1926 Cleveland Plain Dealer -

[Sven Nilsen]

An article on Chagrin Valley suggesting Thompson's work here might have started as early as 1922.

April 6, 1924 Cleveland Plain Dealer -

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