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Niall C

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2022, 05:38:11 PM »
I always thought the "rule" was at least 2 yards in from the edge and 18 inches from a slope but could be wrong.


As for narrow greens, pretty several at Covesea, the 4th at Spyglass and the 4th at Moray Old.


Niall

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2022, 12:27:09 AM »

Much depends on green speeds, but even so, I would think two yards rather than three or four is a reasonable minimum.

Ciao


Three or four yards as a minimum is ridiculous. On many greens it would eliminate most pinnable positions.


There are plenty of older courses with greens only seven or eight yards across!
Like Ally, I can't think of many holes with greens as small as that.  Can you list a few.


And three or four yards as a minimum would deprive a lot of holes of some great pin positions.


The second green at Cavendish is 13 yards deep. Restricting pins to 4 yards from the edge would leave only a narrow strip across the middle of the green available - nearly all of it sloping viciously from back to front.


The 11th at Altrincham is an irregular shaped green featuring narrow areas which are perfectly pinnable  - but not if you can’t go nearer than 4 yards from the edge.


That’s just two courses (both with Dr Mac greens) of which I’m a member. There must be countless other humble club course examples.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 12:45:16 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2022, 12:30:23 AM »
I always thought the "rule" was at least 2 yards in from the edge and 18 inches from a slope but could be wrong.


As for narrow greens, pretty several at Covesea, the 4th at Spyglass and the 4th at Moray Old.


Niall


That’s just it. There is no rule! Myths proliferate among golfers about “illegal pins”, but there is no rule or guidance about how far a pin must be from the edge of a green.


The USGA has different guidelines to the R&A on this, but that is irrelevant to us in the U.K.




Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2022, 02:32:52 AM »
Another thought concerns visibility.


If the hole is cut 8' from trouble and I can see that, and I still go for it then ....


But if I'm 200 yards out and the flag is all I can see....


I would guess the majority of approach shots fall somewhere in between these examples and golf would be a lot less interesting if we all choose the prudent example and just aim for the middle of the green each time. My interest in this thread was piqued by me noticing these ''extreme" examples cropping up several times in some rounds and not always used judiciously. It's often interesting for the wrong reason. Several times recently I've heard comments like "they won't be using that position on Captains day".
Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2022, 02:46:48 AM »
Tight and unusual hole locations also make things more interesting, less boring, and enhance the importance of course management and the use of the brain.
As Bobby Jones said, in golf the most important distance is the 5" between the ears.
atb

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2022, 02:59:34 AM »
I’m not sure anyone is advocating 4 yards as a minimum, although each green is different.


One other thing to consider is that if the person placing the pins cannot read the results of his actions and places the pin in an unpinnable  position.


There was a year or two down at Belmullet when one particular greenkeeper clearly wasn’t a golfer and put the pins right at the foot of huge slopes, making my design look ridiculous.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2022, 04:23:16 AM »
Some years ago, I went to a golf course opening; a farming family had decided to get out of agriculture and converted their property into a pay and play golf course. Members of the family were training to take on key roles in the management of the course.

The young man who was training to be the greenkeeper had clearly not yet done the pin setting module of the course, because on one hole where the architect had built a two tier green, he set the pin for opening day in the middle of the slope joining the two tiers. Fortunately it was one of the more gentle tiered greens I've ever seen but still, it was the first, and hopefully last time in my life I have had to lag a two foot putt.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

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www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2022, 04:45:28 AM »
it was the first, and hopefully last time in my life I have had to lag a two foot putt.


So you haven’t been to Crystal Downs yet?

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2022, 05:21:48 AM »
There is no law defining pin positions, but there are clear recommendations, worked out over many years by folk who spend much more time considering these things than we do.


Let's consider the USGA for one.



Rule 15-3(ii) recommends that holes should be placed "at least four paces from any edge of the putting green," and even farther if there's a sand trap near the edge or if the area surrounding the green's edge slopes downward.

It is down to the good judgment of the individual/s involved to place the hole in a sensible location given the factors involved in each case (distance of approach, slope, wind, etc). Put it four-feet from the edge if you want, but be prepared to be ridiculed, abused and relieved of your responsibilities!

To address Duncan's point about narrow greens. I think we would need some proof of the claim before we can accurately assess the situation. If you consider that an average UK tee is in the range of 6-10 metres wide, it would be most unusual to find a green with dimensions as slim as this. At the narrow end of this range one would struggle to avoid placing the hole cups in anything other than a line down the middle. In this case, it is likely that there has been some regression of the green edge over the years and a case could be made to restore or widen the green on the basis of spreading wear. I note Duncan mentioned extending a green for this purpose.

My own benchmark when designing greens is to draw an inner ring 3 metres in from the edge and to have the hole location zones out to that limit. That equates to about 4 paces. It has served me well over 30+ years. Where the GK cuts the pin is up to them, but I do not ever remember seeing a hole cut 4-feet from the edge in anything other than a 'Greenkeeper's Revenge' event.  Fun for the odd silly Saturday, but a freak show in all other instances.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 05:28:51 AM by Robin_Hiseman »
2024: Royal St. David's (x2); Mill Ride
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Niall C

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Re: Hole Positions in the UK
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2022, 07:39:33 AM »
I always thought the "rule" was at least 2 yards in from the edge and 18 inches from a slope but could be wrong.


As for narrow greens, pretty several at Covesea, the 4th at Spyglass and the 4th at Moray Old.


Niall


The greens I mentioned above are 8m wide at the narrowest but by and large I agree with Robins take.


Niall

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