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Buck Wolter

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Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2022, 09:49:02 AM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.

Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Kyle Harris

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Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2022, 09:51:11 AM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.


They’re even more astute about generating engagement.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2022, 06:43:01 PM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.


Not everyone appreciates the course, and that’s fine.  But those guys did seem to let their difficulties in playing the course get under their skin, and their bad review was all about their inability to score.  I wouldn’t have known anything about it if Sean hadn’t sent me a link to their “review” - but I’d rather impress Sean (and Robin and Ally) than the NLU guys, any day.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2022, 08:12:42 PM »
Kyle, I don't think that it's harsh in the slightest.


There was nothing about the OG that impressed me in the slightest. Nowhere is there a rule book or slab of commandments that appoints one to appreciate courses outside their field of enjoyment.


I believe that the lP is a wonderful playground. I would return and play it, the new par three course, and the putting course.
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

Mark Fedeli

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Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2022, 09:10:02 PM »
Played the Loop last year.  Absolutely loved it and thought it was pure genius.  Have played numerous courses in Ireland and thought the turf played as close to Ireland as I have played in the US.


Would have never been able to play it if not for carts.  Spoke w the starter about allowing carts and he related that the owner asked the super if they could try carts and see if the turf would hold up.  They did and it did. 


I believe that golf should be a walking sport.  But for those that condemn their use realize that u too will hopefully age. I am 71 w an awful back - arthritis, spinal stenosis, herniated disc.  I am no longer able to walk and play golf.


I only wish that more of the destination courses - Bandon, Cabot, Sand Valley would allow carts.  Yes, you can get a cart  w a medical certificate, but often only for yourself.  Must take a caddie, making the cost prohibitive, especially since my wife also requires a cart (two knee replacements).


If the Loop can allow carts w out significant turf damage why can't others?  I would propose allowing carts for those over 60, no questions asked...


I’m sympathetic to your comments, Cliff, especially as I get older, but why should we expect to be physically able to play any course we want? Most of us must accept without question that there are certain private courses we’ll never have the money or connections to play. Is this really any different? It is a sport, after all.


Bethpage is my home course. The Black course does not allow carts and, as a result, I play it less and less as the years go by. That’s fine by me. I’d never dream of expecting them to allow carts. I had my time. And there are courses throughout the world I’ll never have a chance to play while I’m upright. So it goes.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2022, 05:20:18 AM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
Not everyone appreciates the course, and that’s fine.  But those guys did seem to let their difficulties in playing the course get under their skin, and their bad review was all about their inability to score.  I wouldn’t have known anything about it if Sean hadn’t sent me a link to their “review” - but I’d rather impress Sean (and Robin and Ally) than the NLU guys, any day.
If Sean, Robin or Ally (and some others) suggest to me a course is worth playing I listen hard and make a mental note to try and get there one day.
As suggested above NLU and others of a similar ilk have differing aims and priorities and the extent to which I pay attention to what they have to say is adjusted accordingly.
While its logistically unlikely I would love visit the Loop one day. The whole concept intrigues me. Hopefully, fingers crossed, nudge, nudge, wishful thinking, something like it might one day happen in the U.K.
Atb

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2022, 09:50:53 AM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.


Finally a tipping point that I can get my hands around. NLU subscription canceled. Words have consequences.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2022, 07:05:34 PM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.


Finally a tipping point that I can get my hands around. NLU subscription canceled. Words have consequences.


I find the NLU guys generally amusing as retail blogging golfers go...  but JK , I can't believe you subscribed to their content offerings! ... so please advise, are you cancelling Buffalo Golfer too because Ron M didn't like the Forest Dunes Weiskopf course?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2022, 09:16:30 AM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.
Not everyone appreciates the course, and that’s fine.  But those guys did seem to let their difficulties in playing the course get under their skin, and their bad review was all about their inability to score.  I wouldn’t have known anything about it if Sean hadn’t sent me a link to their “review” - but I’d rather impress Sean (and Robin and Ally) than the NLU guys, any day.
If Sean, Robin or Ally (and some others) suggest to me a course is worth playing I listen hard and make a mental note to try and get there one day.
As suggested above NLU and others of a similar ilk have differing aims and priorities and the extent to which I pay attention to what they have to say is adjusted accordingly.
While its logistically unlikely I would love visit the Loop one day. The whole concept intrigues me. Hopefully, fingers crossed, nudge, nudge, wishful thinking, something like it might one day happen in the U.K.
Atb


Somewhat ironically then, it was NLU's Tourist Sauce YouTube video that prompted me to plan this trip. That and Eric Anders Lang Adventures in Golf offering.


Doubtful we will ever create something of this ilk anew in the UK. This concept needs a sandy site and unless some of the abundant military land on sand becomes available I can't see where else it is possible.


The channels and vales that feed into the greens at The Loop only work if the ground is hard and running. The concept would be wholly inferior if it were soft, receptive ground.
'22: Al Mouj; Cleeve, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook, Astbury, Silloth, Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield, Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn Marquess, JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex West, Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs South, Crystal Downs, The Loop, Shoreacres, Chicago

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2022, 09:29:27 AM »

The channels and vales that feed into the greens at The Loop only work if the ground is hard and running. The concept would be wholly inferior if it were soft, receptive ground.


Robin:


I am not so sure of that.  Construction in sand is always easier, certainly, but Tom Simpson did several reversible projects [on a smaller scale] on what were surely not sandy sites.  You can create an awful lot of interest just with the variety and dual orientation of the greens.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2022, 10:02:06 AM »
Tom


Point taken, although if he were in the south of the UK where I am there is a chance he did have sand to work with, but even so, clay gets rock hard in the summer, so behaves in the same way, firm and fast.


I thought I detected a nod to Painswick 16 on Black 3, but that may just be my wishful thinking!
'22: Al Mouj; Cleeve, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook, Astbury, Silloth, Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield, Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn Marquess, JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex West, Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs South, Crystal Downs, The Loop, Shoreacres, Chicago

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2022, 04:45:36 PM »
...
To detail eighteen holes so intricately whilst keeping everything looking natural with nothing out of place is a true art, especially when that detailing marries such strong playing strategies....
...

Some time ago I suggested he was an artist here. The dude denied it! Go figure.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2022, 05:09:29 PM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.

Seems to me that watching those guys is a big waste of time. I couldn't stand more than a couple of their episodes.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2022, 05:36:05 PM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.


The No Laying up guys all have terrible short games for their handicap. They continually miss the mark on courses that require a lot of short game creativity including a lot of Doak courses. 


That said, my personal opinion is that Doak  prioritises short game interest to the extent that a lot of approach shots become difficult to the point where criticism is valid so I don’t think the NLU guys are completely wrong.


If Doak ends up having a defining course my prediction is it will be a pitch and putt course with holes between 30 and 60 yards where playability meshes perfectly with a micro undulations.



Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2022, 07:19:42 PM »
I haven't played the Loop but for architectural achievement Stone Eagle is hard to beat. If you look at the land it was built on and the unbelievable visuals on the course I consider Stone Eagle TD' s best work and the best course design in all of Palm Springs area.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2022, 07:46:37 PM »
My observation (don't have the data) is the season-round percentage of cart players doesn't vary too much, and it's in the range of 85-95%.  September is a high-volume month, October not so much.  The season this year is May 5 - Oct 16.
That's amazing that a course can start out as walking only (meaning very walkable) and yet once carts are allowed virtually everyone rides.  One of the many fails of the American golf industry in the last 50 years is how they have turned the vast majority of golfers into cart jockeys.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2022, 11:22:48 PM »
My observation (don't have the data) is the season-round percentage of cart players doesn't vary too much, and it's in the range of 85-95%.  September is a high-volume month, October not so much.  The season this year is May 5 - Oct 16.
That's amazing that a course can start out as walking only (meaning very walkable) and yet once carts are allowed virtually everyone rides.  One of the many fails of the American golf industry in the last 50 years is how they have turned the vast majority of golfers into cart jockeys.


Don't forget a lot of folks are on vacation...  (and yes its an easy walk, all you need are 6-7 clubs in a small bag and a handful of balls)


The golf industry has also turned golfers into victims of fashion, and donkeys carrying 14 clubs, a dozen+ balls, a bag of tees, cell phones, music boxes, gps, and range finder paraphernalia, plus food & beverage supplies,... a vehicle definitely helps.


I think its too early to call any living gca's course a masterpiece, but the Loop may be in contention.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2022, 11:25:47 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Sean_A

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Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2022, 12:18:43 AM »
Is the Loop polarizing? The No Laying Up guys did a Michigan 'tourist sauce' trip last year and did not enjoy it (Soly in particular). I think they are typically fairly astute about architecture so that opinion really surprised me.


Not everyone appreciates the course, and that’s fine.  But those guys did seem to let their difficulties in playing the course get under their skin, and their bad review was all about their inability to score.  I wouldn’t have known anything about it if Sean hadn’t sent me a link to their “review” - but I’d rather impress Sean (and Robin and Ally) than the NLU guys, any day.

I know little about architecture, but from what I do know I didn't think I would ever come across a more interesting result as Royal Worlington. The Loop surpasses this and then some. Five courses and over a week later I am still thinking about The Loop.

BTW, nothing to do with Tom, but I like Meadowbrook a load.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, Malone, Cruit Island & St Pats

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2022, 03:35:17 AM »
Quote

BTW, nothing to do with Tom, but I like Meadowbrook a load.

Well of course you do. You love Huntercombe and that was Andy’s principal inspiration for that project.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2022, 03:37:40 AM by Adam Lawrence »
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2022, 09:37:57 AM »
I absolutely, positively LOVE The Loop.   It was my last pre-pandemic golf vacation, and I loved every shot in both directions.


I was fortunate enough to have been there 2 years before it opened, but the course was under construction.  I remember seeing the bunker on #1 (black?) thinking about it's tremendous size and visual impact.   Sure enough, I as I played my approach, that same bunker was laughing at me, daring me to fly it to the green beyond.   


From there, the 2 days at The Loop were never-ending fun.   


But alas, the secret is out.  I tried 3 times to arrange a road trip from Philly, but their lodging was sold out.   Reminded me a bit of my favorite, Bandon Dunes, in 2000, before it became well known, crowded, and expensive.   


Forest Dunes is a special place - the staff was always great, the cost was reasonable.


PS - The original course is a very nice contrast to The Loop.   It's not The Loop - it doesn't try to be that type of golf course.   But it was fun enough that we played it 3 times the first visit and once after playing The Loop in each direction.   It most certainly is a golf course that should be enjoyed.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2022, 07:31:39 PM »
Have the enjoyment of playing three reversible courses - St Andrews, Silvies Ranch and The Loop. I think The Loop is the best because it was purposely designed over a landform that was conducive to the project, plus it is truly reversible. There is an art to design and one would be hard pressed to argue about any hole at The Loop as to which was the primary design and what was modified to adapt to the condition of reverse play.


Yesterday I read a music essay on Daily Kos which parallels this question
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/9/4/2120830/-Let-s-talk-about-music-especially-one-hit-wonders-and-Dan-Fogelberg?utm_campaign=spotlight.
The Loop is unique and a masterpiece but that cannot detract from the other works produced. Pacific Dunes and Rock Creek Cattle Company are exemplary for the landform and the opus. (PD is in my "backyard" and RCCC was deemed "on the way" from home in

Portland to Sagebrush

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2022, 10:03:53 PM »
My observation (don't have the data) is the season-round percentage of cart players doesn't vary too much, and it's in the range of 85-95%.  September is a high-volume month, October not so much.  The season this year is May 5 - Oct 16.


Wait, you are saying 85-95% carts vs. walking on The Loop?


If so, good grief.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2022, 06:36:15 AM »
When we played there was only one other group walking that we could see. The rest of the field was riding, often with loud music blaring out of the cart.
'22: Al Mouj; Cleeve, Painswick, Minch Old, Weybrook, Astbury, Silloth, Balfron, Strathendrick, Archerfield, Roxburghe, Stoneham, Woburn Marquess, JCB, Pyrford, Hayling, Clandon, Wentworth (East), Ashbourne, East Sussex West, Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs South, Crystal Downs, The Loop, Shoreacres, Chicago

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2022, 07:03:11 AM »
When we played there was only one other group walking that we could see. The rest of the field was riding, often with loud music blaring out of the cart.


Even pulling up to a green with two carts and two songs competing with each other as we are teeing off just beside…. Honestly don’t see the attraction…. At all

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is 'The Loop' Tom Doak's masterpiece?
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2022, 08:42:36 AM »
Most unfortunate about the music...carts r one thing blaring music another.  We live in an era of non stop noise pollution.  From doctor's offices to restaurants to shopping a constant barrage of intrusive music - pretty sure not Baroque or jazz...If Liv influences golf it will only be negative and music on the course is likely...
« Last Edit: September 06, 2022, 09:04:42 AM by Cliff Hamm »

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