I told you; LIV is for lawyers...

[Edward Glidewell]

They don't show up for them now. One or two here and there… but we already know what the "bigger" elevated events are. I think there's a much greater chance of the Tour dying if they keep doing the same thing, not if they do something adjacent to what's being discussed.

Yes they do. Most events have at least 10-15 guys who would be in the top 60, if not more. This move would significantly weaken the strength of field of every other Tour event -- I don't see how that's even arguable.

I'm not suggesting the Tour needs to keep doing the exact same thing, but this proposal would probably lead to great financial benefits for the current top players, while causing long-term financial harm for the next generation.


Again, unless the whole model changes, the Tour stops being a non-profit organization, and starts takes in investor money. Which apparently may happen.

[Edward Glidewell]

Perhaps, but a bigger question that no one seems to have asked is, If the "top 60 players are playing in big-money, no-cut event as a tour-within-a-tour on the PGAT, how does someone who is, say 85th on the ranking move up into the top 60?


I had this question about the WGC events because they were supposed to do the same thing.  Pay the top guys more without a cut to guarantee these supposed elite fields all the fans want to see. But if they had been successful, those 60 players would have made so much more money that their positions in the WGC events would have been virtually guaranteed...perhaps for several years.


Let's assume this new version is adopted, and two or three players soon are consistently finishing at the bottom of the "elite fields" meanwhile kids like Scheffler, or Zalatoris, or Cam Young are tearing up the regular tour, but thanks to the purse disparity the money they're winning still isn't enough to move them into the top 60.


Will fans still think the "elite" events are showcasing the best players?


Personally, one of the reasons I watch the little golf I do is to see some Cinderella story either happen, or come close to happening.

This is what I was getting at. It'll end up creating a ceiling where it's difficult for any new players to break in -- I'm sure there would be some mechanism, but it would almost certainly be limited to a very small number each year.

[Ken Moum]

This is what I was getting at. It'll end up creating a ceiling where it's difficult for any new players to break in -- I'm sure there would be some mechanism, but it would almost certainly be limited to a very small number each year.

Personally, I could see the current "playoff" model as creating actual drama and excitement that would really attract both fans of golf and those who want to gamble on golf.


What happened yesterday with players grinding to get into the top 30 to advance to East Lake could be replicated by simply relegating a half-dozen players from each of these 15 events.  Say there are 60 players in them, each time they have an event the bottom six get dropped back into the regular Tour events and six get promoted.


If those six finish in the top 54 (LIV) at the next event, they stay and six different players get relegated.


It would give those players just outside the top 60 a chance (or several chances) to show that they are actually among the pest players in the world.


Creating what will essentially be a closed shop is as dumb as the LIV concept.

[Alex Miller]

but this proposal would probably lead to great financial benefits for the current top players, while causing long-term financial harm for the next generation

I'm not sure this is confirmed and I've heard rumors of a couple of reasons why this is not necessarily the case.

LIV drawing some players away does already open opportunity for players to get into fields who wouldn't otherwise
Proposals for Korn Ferry performance impacting tour status when they occur, not waiting til end of year
Nothing about purses going down for events not included in this series (PGA Tour is drawing from an increase from their media rights deal)

[Ken Moum]

but this proposal would probably lead to great financial benefits for the current top players, while causing long-term financial harm for the next generation

I'm not sure this is confirmed and I've heard rumors of a couple of reasons why this is not necessarily the case.

LIV drawing some players away does already open opportunity for players to get into fields who wouldn't otherwise
Proposals for Korn Ferry performance impacting tour status when they occur, not waiting til end of year
Nothing about purses going down for events not included in this series (PGA Tour is drawing from an increase from their media rights deal)

I still think the key is creating a dynamic system that has some real consequences for failing to perform for the top 60 or whatever.

[Edward Glidewell]

I still think the key is creating a dynamic system that has some real consequences for failing to perform for the top 60 or whatever.

I agree, but why would the current top players advocate for a system like that? It goes against their own personal interest. They're better off if they can essentially lock themselves in into tournaments where they will make money as long as they show up.

[Niall C]

I still think the key is creating a dynamic system that has some real consequences for failing to perform for the top 60 or whatever.

I agree, but why would the current top players advocate for a system like that? It goes against their own personal interest. They're better off if they can essentially lock themselves in into tournaments where they will make money as long as they show up.

Sorry Edward, are you referring to the LIV guys or the PGA Tour guys ? 


I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been any pointed comments regarding Tiger and Rory's part in these proposals, especially after all their cant about competition and the like. Especially Rory. Is he not meant to be on the board at the PGA Tour to look after ALL the players interests ? Given him and Tiger have supposedly been cooking this up for the last two years then his comments on others being hypocritical are themselves a bit hypocritical, are they not ?


Niall

[John Kavanaugh]

That’s another blow to the sports washing conspiracy theorists.

[Edward Glidewell]

Sorry Edward, are you referring to the LIV guys or the PGA Tour guys ? 

Both, really.

The release today makes it seem like that's not what the PGA Tour is doing, though, at least not right away.


LIV has other issues in terms of being best for the players, mainly around getting into the majors. Even if they eventually get OWGR points, there will be less points available than PGA Tour events because the fields are weaker, so those guys are still going to slide down the rankings. Of course, if you're a player who just wants to make as much money as possible and doesn't actually care about the majors beyond the purse available, then that doesn't matter to you either.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been any pointed comments regarding Tiger and Rory's part in these proposals, especially after all their cant about competition and the like. Especially Rory. Is he not meant to be on the board at the PGA Tour to look after ALL the players interests ? Given him and Tiger have supposedly been cooking this up for the last two years then his comments on others being hypocritical are themselves a bit hypocritical, are they not ?


Niall

Today's announcement does seem to bring into question the sentiment about LIV players only chasing the money or playing in exhibition matches. The TGL is not what I was expecting from Rory or Tiger.

[Edward Glidewell]

Today's announcement does seem to bring into question the sentiment about LIV players only chasing the money or playing in exhibition matches. The TGL is not what I was expecting from Rory or Tiger.

I wouldn't go that far, considering it's just an additional sideshow thing that's not replacing or even competing with regular tournaments.


With that said, I really doubt it goes anywhere. Who wants to watch people play simulator golf?

[Pat Burke]

I’m curious to see how the hundreds of players not in the magic 60 get sorted out.




With the recent changes in world rankings points, those 60 man, no cut events will carry enormous points that secondary events , European,  and other tour events will have.


Seems the “legacy and history” of the traditional pga tour events with full fields and cuts is going the way of limited fields and no cuts that will help top players gather more and more points.


The tour is about the players. If you’re in the right tier.


Lots of hypocrisy from all sides in this, and no surprise at all. It’s a world full of ass kissers and selfish

[Ben Hollerbach]

If Tiger and Rory have been working on this for 2 years as reported, it does tint their previous commentary as someone who was beaten to market. The whole thing feels a bit "Monday Night Raw" to me.

[John Kavanaugh]

Golf and honor are out of the closet.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not sure why limited invite events is now under so much scrutiny. 

The size of the LIV fields is way down the list of grievances from what I've seen, and most of that focuses on the fact that for such small fields there is massive disparity of player skills, include those shooting huge numbers and collecting massive checks, which is not seen in other reputable fields for the PGATour, DP, Korn Ferry, etc..

Even the PGA Tour has been doing limited field stuff for decades like Jack and Arnie's events, in addition to the Majors with their various limiting qualifying criteria.

Golf like every other sport has always been about exceeding at one level to pass thru a gate to the next and I don't see why that should arbitrarily end.

[JohnVDB]

Honest question - do they give out OWGR points for the Tour Championship this week?

Yes, but the players qualified to get there. They use the "real" leaderboard, which is a bit of a weird thing, since if you have a two-shot lead in the real tournament you would play the 18th hole differently than if you were trailing by one in the OWGR shadow leaderboard.

Will Zal had to drop out of the TC.  He comes in 30th and gets $500k.  Does he get OWGR points for coming in 30th, despite not playing?

He didn’t get any for last week so he won’t get any this week either.

[David Kelly]

The size of the LIV fields is way down the list of grievances from what I've seen...

That's not what is being addressed by this move. What's being addressed is the main issue that led to LIV in the first place, which is that the stars - both the ones that went to LIV and the ones that stayed - want a bigger cut of the pie. It's pretty simple. 

The Gary McCord 125-exempt tour worked for the PGA for a long time but eventually the more successful players felt that they are losing $$$ in order to support the bottom feeders of the tour who don't drive ratings or attendance.  Had the leadership of the PGA recognized this issue as being a serious one earlier, they might have been able to head off the LIV and saved themselves a lot of grief.  I don't know if there was anyone of sufficient clout and persuasiveness that could have convinced the players that while they may be riding high right now, it wouldn't take much for them to be residing at the bottom of the exempt list in short order and that the system should be maintained but the grievences should have been taken seriously.

[Tony_Muldoon]

The size of the LIV fields is way down the list of grievances from what I've seen...

That's not what is being addressed by this move. What's being addressed is the main issue that led to LIV in the first place, which is that the stars - both the ones that went to LIV and the ones that stayed - want a bigger cut of the pie. It's pretty simple. 

The Gary McCord 125-exempt tour worked for the PGA for a long time but eventually the more successful players felt that they are losing $$$ in order to support the bottom feeders of the tour who don't drive ratings or attendance.  Had the leadership of the PGA recognized this issue as being a serious one earlier, they might have been able to head off the LIV and saved themselves a lot of grief.  I don't know if there was anyone of sufficient clout and persuasiveness that could have convinced the players that while they may be riding high right now, it wouldn't take much for them to be residing at the bottom of the exempt list in short order and that the system should be maintained but the grievences should have been taken seriously.

I'm sure someone will enlighten me if I'm wrong but..


Surely there has always been player representation on the PGA board and I don't recall discussion of these grievances?
What happened was the 'malcontents' haven't previously driven this issue, but out side agencies' have stirred the pot and picked the right people to protest?

[Wayne_Kozun]

I wonder how these new elevated events will affect some longstanding tour events.  Close to home for me is the Canadian Open.  Will it be one of the new elevated events?  If so, will they still have exemptions for additional Canadians to get into the field?  If it isn't then it is going to have a very crappy field as the non-elevated events will look like alternate field events held the week of the British Open, etc.  And what about the Scottish Open?

[Kalen Braley]

The size of the LIV fields is way down the list of grievances from what I've seen...

That's not what is being addressed by this move. What's being addressed is the main issue that led to LIV in the first place, which is that the stars - both the ones that went to LIV and the ones that stayed - want a bigger cut of the pie. It's pretty simple. 

David,

I agree, my last comment was in context to all the chatter going on in this thread around field size which is basically a non-starter.

That being said, If the information in this article is accurate, it looks like they are making a lot of good moves in addition to having higher pay outs for star players:

"In its ongoing battle with LIV Golf for the best players in the world, the PGA Tour committed another $146 million to its players in an attempt to keep them."

"Besides doubling the number of players who will benefit (10 to 20) and the amount of money that will be distributed ($50 million to $100 million), the PGA Tour is adjusting the formula for how players will be measured on their impact on the tour"

"The PGA Tour also is launching an Earnings Assurance Program for fully exempt members, which guarantees a league-minimum salary of $500,000 per player. Players receiving that money must participate in 15 events. Rookies and returning members will receive the money at the start of the season."

"For non-exempt members, those who were ranked 126th to 150th in the FedEx Cup points standings and below, they'll receive $5,000 for every missed cut. The tour will also subsidize travel and tournament-related expenses to those players."

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34453891/what-know-know-pga-tour-upcoming-changes

[Wayne_Kozun]

So UBI has come to the world of pro golf.

[cary lichtenstein]

So it all started by some snarky comments by Phil Mickelson, who hit the nail on its head by the slow but now obvious action to save the PGA from the LIV

[John Kavanaugh]

So it all started by some snarky comments by Phil Mickelson, who hit the nail on its head by the slow but now obvious action to save the PGA from the LIV

It started to sell a book.

[John Kavanaugh]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/evSDVwXENrE

[Steve Lang]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/evSDVwXENrE

WOW BREAKING NEWS...  PGA Tour puts its independent contractors under contract, disrupts non-profit cash flows and redefines merit system around USA pro golf...  can't wait for all the clickbait to come,,


NOT

[Tags:]

Tags: