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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2022, 07:05:19 PM »
Niall.....I will say it again, the 54 hole tour does not have the best players.  They have WELL KNOW NAMES, but NOT the best golfers.


These guys made their NAME on the PGA Tour and now they are turning their back on that tour to chase blood money.  There's a name for people that forget how they got where they are in life.

You are confused. Golfers make the tour and are the Tour. If there was no PGAT there would be and there are are other tours. Its not like the Tour is a league of rich owners who risk a ton of capital to own and operate a pro team. All the money generated by the Tour is from golfers. In truth, all the Tour personnel are very lucky to be earning a very good living off golfers.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, Malone, Cruit Island & St Pats

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2022, 07:33:01 PM »
Niall.....I will say it again, the 54 hole tour does not have the best players.  They have WELL KNOW NAMES, but NOT the best golfers.


These guys made their NAME on the PGA Tour and now they are turning their back on that tour to chase blood money.  There's a name for people that forget how they got where they are in life.

You are confused. Golfers make the tour and are the Tour. If there was no PGAT there would be and there are are other tours. Its not like the Tour is a league of rich owners who risk a ton of capital to own and operate a pro team. All the money generated by the Tour is from golfers. In truth, all the Tour personnel are very lucky to be earning a very good living off golfers.

Ciao


The price of gasoline has come down since we bought into this travesty.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2022, 01:51:36 AM »
Now Eamon Lynch is saying it's going to be one-day "stadium" events. 


Huh?


https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/08/21/tiger-woods-rory-mcilroy-pga-tour-new-technology-driven-series/
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

cary lichtenstein

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2022, 11:30:25 AM »
According to LIV, 7 more players will be joining them at the end of the Fedex Cup. Anyone care to venture a guess as to who these are?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2022, 11:40:06 AM »
I wonder how many kids are hitting putts on a practice green today to win a LIV tour contract...............
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2022, 12:00:04 PM »
My twin brother retired (lucky b*stard) this past Friday.  On Saturday his family held a small retirement lunch for him at a restaurant not far from their home just north of Wilmington where the BMW was being played.


At the lunch was a old dear friend of my clones, who has done lots of USGA refereeing at many events we've all seen on TV (many of you would recognize the face as the past few years he's doe lots of high profile events).  When we spoke, I said to him "I'm hoping LIV gives you a ring now that you're time with the USGA is done, Slugger White needs a right hand."  To which his wife said " So do I, with what they pay we could retire earlier."


LIV $$$ is for more than just the guys between the ropes swinging the clubs.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2022, 02:15:55 PM »
Nice posts, Niall, as always.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Daryl David

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2022, 03:36:53 PM »
The 54 Hole Tour has not attracted the best players. They have attracted greedy has-been players that no longer can win at the highest level.


The big ticket items he says were discussed at the meeting:


-18 no-cut tournaments featuring the top 60 with $20 million purses


-The PGA Tour shifting to a for-profit business model


-$500,000 advances for the non-top 60 and gobs of private equity money coming to the rescue.



Looks like the PGAT is going to look more like the “54 Hole Tour”. Just goes to show there are never black and white answers in business. Competition changes the terrain.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 04:15:49 PM by Daryl David »

Peter Pallotta

Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2022, 04:09:21 PM »
Daryl -- yes, which puts the issue of world ranking points and how they'll be determined in a new light -- and in turn the question of access to the Majors for not otherwise exempt LIV members.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 07:05:44 PM by PPallotta »

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2022, 07:32:56 PM »
Honest question - do they give out OWGR points for the Tour Championship this week?

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2022, 09:03:15 PM »
Honest question - do they give out OWGR points for the Tour Championship this week?
Yes, but the players qualified to get there. They use the "real" leaderboard, which is a bit of a weird thing, since if you have a two-shot lead in the real tournament you would play the 18th hole differently than if you were trailing by one in the OWGR shadow leaderboard.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2022, 11:56:36 PM »
Thanks, by real leaderboard you mean the score it based on actual strokes taken through the four rounds, not the adapted system were they leader starts at -10, correct?

Edward Glidewell

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2022, 12:20:12 AM »
If they do have 18 no cut events for the top 60 players, it seems like most of the other PGA events will slowly die. They'll basically all become alternate field events/glorified Korn Ferry tournaments, because none of the top 60 players are going to show up for them between those special events and the majors.


The money will dry up quickly for those other events, unless the whole model changes (which I guess has also been discussed).

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2022, 07:22:41 AM »
Thanks, by real leaderboard you mean the score it based on actual strokes taken through the four rounds, not the adapted system were they leader starts at -10, correct?
Yes.


If they do have 18 no cut events for the top 60 players, it seems like most of the other PGA events will slowly die.
They don't show up for them now. One or two here and there… but we already know what the "bigger" elevated events are. I think there's a much greater chance of the Tour dying if they keep doing the same thing, not if they do something adjacent to what's being discussed.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2022, 09:54:15 AM »
Honest question - do they give out OWGR points for the Tour Championship this week?
Yes, but the players qualified to get there. They use the "real" leaderboard, which is a bit of a weird thing, since if you have a two-shot lead in the real tournament you would play the 18th hole differently than if you were trailing by one in the OWGR shadow leaderboard.
Will Zal had to drop out of the TC.  He comes in 30th and gets $500k.  Does he get OWGR points for coming in 30th, despite not playing?

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2022, 10:39:23 AM »
If they do have 18 no cut events for the top 60 players, it seems like most of the other PGA events will slowly die. They'll basically all become alternate field events/glorified Korn Ferry tournaments, because none of the top 60 players are going to show up for them between those special events and the majors.


The money will dry up quickly for those other events, unless the whole model changes (which I guess has also been discussed).


Perhaps, but a bigger question that no one seems to have asked is, If the "top 60 players are playing in big-money, no-cut event as a tour-within-a-tour on the PGAT, how does someone who is, say 85th on the ranking move up into the top 60?


I had this question about the WGC events because they were supposed to do the same thing.  Pay the top guys more without a cut to guarantee these supposed elite fields all the fans want to see. But if they had been successful, those 60 players would have made so much more money that their positions in the WGC events would have been virtually guaranteed...perhaps for several years.


Let's assume this new version is adopted, and two or three players soon are consistently finishing at the bottom of the "elite fields" meanwhile kids like Scheffler, or Zalatoris, or Cam Young are tearing up the regular tour, but thanks to the purse disparity the money they're winning still isn't enough to move them into the top 60.


Will fans still think the "elite" events are showcasing the best players?


Personally, one of the reasons I watch the little golf I do is to see some Cinderella story either happen, or come close to happening.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2022, 10:45:56 AM »
Hearing that the PGAT may opt to cede its "non-profit" status, I am guessing that a large part of the game's future will have private equity capital behind it.


Not sure if one or two PE giants will step in with a large foot print and commensurate financial commitment, or if these smaller events will see a combo of corporate and PE capital taking over.


Sports/Media is indeed a ripe "vertical" in PE's universe and has yet not included golf events.


I believe the Taylor Made deal was one of the mid-market "Deals of the Year" when KPS Partners sold it for a 7-8x Cash on cash return. Sure, that's equipment, but it may give investors optimism as the game is on a noticable growth curve coming out of COVID.

Greg Krueger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2022, 11:03:34 AM »
The LIV players are going to drop like bricks in the World Rankings which means they won't be playing in the Majors unless they are a past champion. Looks like it would be 2024 at the earliest for OWR Points. Enjoy your money boys!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2022, 11:28:08 AM »
The LIV players are going to drop like bricks in the World Rankings which means they won't be playing in the Majors unless they are a past champion. Looks like it would be 2024 at the earliest for OWR Points. Enjoy your money boys!


I'm not a LIV guy, but if the Majors ignore some of the best players in the world, they will eventually cease to be majors.
The Us Open is still pretty "Open" with many qualifying spots available, though ignoring LIV players who would've qualified(potentially)via OWGR would somewhat weaken the fields as those players wouldn't automatically play their way through one and two day qualifiers where there are quite a few spots available.
the Open would really drop in stature as their are only 12 spots available in Open qualifying (a negative development IMHO)
therefore far less players from LIV would have a chance to qualify.


PGA is already on the cusp and The Masters has their set of rules but eventually, the loss of many past major champions and OWGR players would reduce its stature
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2022, 11:29:10 AM »
The LIV players are going to drop like bricks in the World Rankings which means they won't be playing in the Majors unless they are a past champion. Looks like it would be 2024 at the earliest for OWR Points. Enjoy your money boys!


1. The Masters: Isnt this basically an "Invitational" tourney where the hosts can invite whomever they want?


2. The US Open: Can't the LIV guys just try to qualify locally/regionally for a spot?


3. The Open: same thing. LIVers can try to qualify.


4. The PGA - access denied, I get that...;-)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2022, 11:31:08 AM »
The LIV players are going to drop like bricks in the World Rankings which means they won't be playing in the Majors unless they are a past champion. Looks like it would be 2024 at the earliest for OWR Points. Enjoy your money boys!


1. The Masters: Isnt this basically an "Invitational" tourney where the hosts can invite whomever they want?


2. The US Open: Can't the LIV guys just try to qualify locally/regionally for a spot?


3. The Open: same thing. LIVers can try to qualify.


4. The PGA - access denied, I get that...;-)


as posted above, but very few "Open spots"-12 in Regional/local Q
a pity as that was the original "Open"
but some LIV players might get in via Asian Tour qualifiers
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2022, 12:14:45 PM »
Jeff


I totally agree re OWGR and have been saying as much. I think inevitable that as much as Jay Monahan may try to influence things the other way, the owners of the majors will look to change the rules to include LIV, either that or they will largely disregard OWGR in terms of the qualification criteria for their tournaments. IMO it would be naive to think otherwise even if Martin Slumbers did a bit of sabre rattling during the Open.


Niall


   

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2022, 12:22:01 PM »
Hearing that the PGAT may opt to cede its "non-profit" status, I am guessing that a large part of the game's future will have private equity capital behind it.


Not sure if one or two PE giants will step in with a large foot print and commensurate financial commitment, or if these smaller events will see a combo of corporate and PE capital taking over.


Sports/Media is indeed a ripe "vertical" in PE's universe and has yet not included golf events.


I believe the Taylor Made deal was one of the mid-market "Deals of the Year" when KPS Partners sold it for a 7-8x Cash on cash return. Sure, that's equipment, but it may give investors optimism as the game is on a noticable growth curve coming out of COVID.




Ian


What would these investors be buying and what would the PGA Tour be selling ? When I was younger there used to be a saying which was no show without Punch. In other words without any players there is nothing to watch. That is what LIV have realised and the PGA Tour seems to have belatedly discovered given their eagerness to change their status in an attempt to presumably get the players under some sort of contract.


It will be interesting to see whether they are too late or indeed whether the investors you talk about don't simply look to deal with the players direct similar to LIV have done.


Niall

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers...
« Reply #73 on: August 23, 2022, 02:05:23 PM »
Hearing that the PGAT may opt to cede its "non-profit" status, I am guessing that a large part of the game's future will have private equity capital behind it.


Not sure if one or two PE giants will step in with a large foot print and commensurate financial commitment, or if these smaller events will see a combo of corporate and PE capital taking over.


Sports/Media is indeed a ripe "vertical" in PE's universe and has yet not included golf events.


I believe the Taylor Made deal was one of the mid-market "Deals of the Year" when KPS Partners sold it for a 7-8x Cash on cash return. Sure, that's equipment, but it may give investors optimism as the game is on a noticable growth curve coming out of COVID.




Ian


What would these investors be buying and what would the PGA Tour be selling ? When I was younger there used to be a saying which was no show without Punch. In other words without any players there is nothing to watch. That is what LIV have realised and the PGA Tour seems to have belatedly discovered given their eagerness to change their status in an attempt to presumably get the players under some sort of contract.


It will be interesting to see whether they are too late or indeed whether the investors you talk about don't simply look to deal with the players direct similar to LIV have done.


Niall


Too much brian damage to address your questions and I am simply not well-versed in the space.
However, these guys are:


https://pitchbook.com/news/articles/sports-entertainment-deals-us-private-equity-2021






Private equity investments in the sports, media and entertainment industries caught fire in 2021 as firms looked to add sports franchise stakes, music catalogs and Hollywood-backed companies to their portfolios.[/size]As highlighted in our latest [size=inherit]US PE Breakdown[/size][/url][/color], multiple firms focused on scoring minority stakes in sports teams last year as franchises' valuations soared.Dallas-based Arctos Sports Partners, which announced it had closed the largest-ever first-time US PE fund in October 2021 at $3 billion, secured minority stakes in multiple NBA teams. Those included a roughly 5% stake in the Golden State Warriors for around $275 million and a 17% stake in the Sacramento Kings at a $1.8 billion valuation.Beyond the NBA, Arctos has deployed significant capital across at least 12 other investments, including the purchase of a stake in the NHL's Tampa Bay Lightning.Dyal Capital Partners went on an NBA tear of its own, acquiring a nearly 5% stake in the Phoenix Suns at a $1.55 billion valuation and a nearly 5% stake in the Kings. In June 2021, Sixth Street Partners acquired a 30% stake in the San Antonio Spurs alongside Michael Dell, with Sixth Street owning 20% and Dell the remaining 10%.Sports investing has also cemented itself as a global trend. Luxembourg-based CVC Capital Partners purchased an expansion cricket franchise in the Indian Premier League for $736 million in October, and injected $3.2 billion into Spain's La Liga soccer league.
 Private equity firms were also in search of thriving media companies in 2021. In August, Next Generation Media Co.Blackstone's newly formed media business—announced a $900 million buyout of Hello Sunshine, the production company founded by Reese Witherspoon.Next Generation followed up that deal with a pact to buy Moonbug Entertainment, a children's entertainment company. That deal could reportedly value the business at $3 billion or more.Apollo Global Management closed a $5 billion deal for Yahoo's New York news division in September. Thomas H. Lee Partners acquired BazaarVoice—a provider of outsourced technology, community management, analytics and syndication services—for $1.75 billion in March.Music catalog deals continued to be a hot ticket item. Since late 2020, Universal Music Group paid nearly $400 million for Bob Dylan's song catalog, and Sony Music Group, with some financing from Eldridge Industries, bought Bruce Springsteen's masters for $500 million in the largest deal to date. Shamrock Capital paid $300 million for the master recordings of Taylor Swift's first six albums.In March, KKR and BMG announced a partnership to acquire music rights. In December, the investing duo acquired the music catalog of American rock band ZZ Top, in a deal that included the band's publishing catalog and their income from recorded royalties and performance royalties. This month, KKR and BMG also acquired the music catalog of singer-songwriter John Legend.



[/font]

Steve Lang

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Re: I told you; LIV is for lawyers... or
« Reply #74 on: August 23, 2022, 02:09:54 PM »
 8)   Seems LIV is for DISRUPTORS...





Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

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