[Wayne_Kozun]

Why would it not work?  Real estate value.


In the Toronto area it is hard to see how any golf courses beyond munis, member owned clubs, or courses on undevelopable lands will be built in the future, or even continue to operate as golf courses, unless we see a substantial real estate crash.  Even some excellent member owned clubs are at risk of being developed - like Beacon Hall.

[Phil Carlucci]

It's clear privately owned P&P courses have the deck severely stacked against them for a variety of reasons. 

Someone smarter than me would have to break down the economics, but it seems to me that there are ways for a P&P to be successful as part of a municipal park.  Like I mentioned previously, Nassau County built a 10-acre P&P on unused beachfront, with enough interest in the design that it caught the attention of The Fried Egg.  Unfortunately, the county opened and has since operated the course in complete anonymity and has largely left it to the forces of seaside nature.

Let's say we go back in time and place someone forward-thinking at the helm.  You have a park intern put up social media posts about the course once or twice a week.  You bring in rotating food trucks on summer/fall weekends to serve burgers, tacos and whatnot at the course gate throughout the day (or some approved county vendor if we're gonna get into the weeds on municipalities).  You run a hole-in-one or closest-to-pin contest once a month.  All the while you're giving the locals an attractive place to spend an hour or two, and a stepping stone for young kids and beginners to play with friends and family.  Is this not a reasonable model for a successful P&P?  It seems to me that it is, provided you're not purchasing the land, but I admit I don't really have a handle on the economics.

Or to look at it from a different perspective, what's the difference in revenue and maintenance costs for a 10-acre P&P with mat tees, small greens and a couple of bunkers, versus a pair of underused baseball/softball fields?

[Kalen Braley]

It's clear privately owned P&P courses have the deck severely stacked against them for a variety of reasons. 

Or to look at it from a different perspective, what's the difference in revenue and maintenance costs for a 10-acre P&P with mat tees, small greens and a couple of bunkers, versus a pair of underused baseball/softball fields?

Phil,

The exact opposite seems to be the case from where I sit.

A private P&P can charge dues and fees well above what the public would pay for same experience.  As mentioned in a prior post, the only standalone P&P in the entire SLC metro area is private as they have a social club, dining, pool, etc at same facility.  Every other short course without exception is bundled in at a facility with a regulation length 9 hole or 18 hole course and driving range.

P.S. As for softball, it may just be a Western US phenomena, but I've lived in California, Utah, and Washington state and every available muni owned softball complex is at capacity for rec league play as weather permits which in most parts of Cali is year round.

[Phil Carlucci]

It's clear privately owned P&P courses have the deck severely stacked against them for a variety of reasons. 

Or to look at it from a different perspective, what's the difference in revenue and maintenance costs for a 10-acre P&P with mat tees, small greens and a couple of bunkers, versus a pair of underused baseball/softball fields?

Phil,

The exact opposite seems to be the case from where I sit.

A private P&P can charge dues and fees well above what the public would pay for same experience.  As mentioned in a prior post, the only standalone P&P in the entire SLC metro area is private as they have a social club, dining, pool, etc at same facility.  Every other short course without exception is bundled in at a facility with a regulation length 9 hole or 18 hole course and driving range.

P.S. As for softball, it may just be a Western US phenomena, but I've lived in California, Utah, and Washington state and every available muni owned softball complex is at capacity for rec league play as weather permits which in most parts of Cali is year round.

There's no doubt it varies from region to region.  Here on Long Island, while many baseball/softball fields are certainly operating at capacity and bringing in a ton of permit fees, there are also many that are underused.  I'd bet they can be converted for other purposes without issue.

[Mark Fedeli]

It's clear privately owned P&P courses have the deck severely stacked against them for a variety of reasons. 

Someone smarter than me would have to break down the economics, but it seems to me that there are ways for a P&P to be successful as part of a municipal park.  Like I mentioned previously, Nassau County built a 10-acre P&P on unused beachfront, with enough interest in the design that it caught the attention of The Fried Egg.  Unfortunately, the county opened and has since operated the course in complete anonymity and has largely left it to the forces of seaside nature.

Let's say we go back in time and place someone forward-thinking at the helm.  You have a park intern put up social media posts about the course once or twice a week.  You bring in rotating food trucks on summer/fall weekends to serve burgers, tacos and whatnot at the course gate throughout the day (or some approved county vendor if we're gonna get into the weeds on municipalities).  You run a hole-in-one or closest-to-pin contest once a month.  All the while you're giving the locals an attractive place to spend an hour or two, and a stepping stone for young kids and beginners to play with friends and family.  Is this not a reasonable model for a successful P&P?  It seems to me that it is, provided you're not purchasing the land, but I admit I don't really have a handle on the economics.

Or to look at it from a different perspective, what's the difference in revenue and maintenance costs for a 10-acre P&P with mat tees, small greens and a couple of bunkers, versus a pair of underused baseball/softball fields?

Phil,


Isn't one of the issues with Nickerson that you need to be a paid member of the beach club to access it?


It's private, but a great example of the vibe you're talking about is The Loma Club in San Diego. Lovely place.


https://thelomaclub.com/

[Phil Carlucci]

Phil,


Isn't one of the issues with Nickerson that you need to be a paid member of the beach club to access it?


It's private, but a great example of the vibe you're talking about is The Loma Club in San Diego. Lovely place.


https://thelomaclub.com/

I don't think that's the case.  You have to be a County resident (or with one) to use the park, and you have to pay a park entrance fee in season.  Other than that I don't think there are any restrictions.

[Sean_A]

This thread brings to mind ice rinks. I would ice rinks are quite expensive to operate, but I think most are muni owned and sometimes operated. There seems to be tolerance for a relatively few number of rinks even in crazy climates. I think the idea of a rink is not to make money, but to provide recreational opportunities for residents. I would think a p&p would be about the same land footprint given parking lots etc. Well run rinks are heavily utilized and provide a ladder from midgets sometimes all the to low level pro hockey as well figure skating and open skating.

Where there is a lack of public facilities, there is a place for muni golf which could easily include p&p if the facilities are well run.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

https://youtu.be/hJo23J73Q8E


Adlington Golf Centre in Cheshire has an excellent pitch and putt course and a par 3 course - both Hawtree designs.


They’re in the course adding an adventure golf courses and have just doubled the size of the range.


The place is clearly thriving.

[Mark Fedeli]

Phil,


Isn't one of the issues with Nickerson that you need to be a paid member of the beach club to access it?


It's private, but a great example of the vibe you're talking about is The Loma Club in San Diego. Lovely place.


https://thelomaclub.com/

I don't think that's the case.  You have to be a County resident (or with one) to use the park, and you have to pay a park entrance fee in season.  Other than that I don't think there are any restrictions.

Yeah, I don't know. That's barrier enough for me. I'm not a county resident, though my in-laws are, but they only go to Long Beach or sometimes Lido, and wouldn't be paying for a third. And if I wasn't planning on spending the day at the beach anyway, I'd be avoiding that island and all the crowds and traffic of beach season. I might suffer it to play Lido once in a while, but not a short pitch and putt. So, my sense is that during the season the potential customers are pretty much only those already paying to spend the day at Nickerson Beach. Could be wrong! But it's certainly not setting the world alight.

[Phil Carlucci]

Yeah, I don't know. That's barrier enough for me. I'm not a county resident, though my in-laws are, but they only go to Long Beach or sometimes Lido, and wouldn't be paying for a third. And if I wasn't planning on spending the day at the beach anyway, I'd be avoiding that island and all the crowds and traffic of beach season. I might suffer it to play Lido once in a while, but not a short pitch and putt. So, my sense is that during the season the potential customers are pretty much only those already paying to spend the day at Nickerson Beach. Could be wrong! But it's certainly not setting the world alight.

So let's take the model I proposed and transplant it a few miles north.  Let's say NYS decides they want to replace the soccer field at Valley Stream State Park with a nine-hole P&P.  It's the perfect size, no land purchase or clearing required.  Direct access to the parkway; parking lot already in place; surrounded by dense communities and one of LI's few black holes for public golf courses.  Maybe a nerd like me posts every once in a while about how there used to be a pre-WWII course right across the parkway.  NYS maintains and promotes it with some of the revenue crumbs from Bethpage.  Could it work then?

[D_Malley]

https://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/courses/template.asp?id=723&page=110328


we are building a new dual function practice range at our municipal golf facility which will have a six hole P&P built into the range using the target greens. The range would closed on the days/times we are using it as a P&P (see link above)


plan is to use this for juniors and/or beginers on select days/times.

[A.G._Crockett]

Yeah, I don't know. That's barrier enough for me. I'm not a county resident, though my in-laws are, but they only go to Long Beach or sometimes Lido, and wouldn't be paying for a third. And if I wasn't planning on spending the day at the beach anyway, I'd be avoiding that island and all the crowds and traffic of beach season. I might suffer it to play Lido once in a while, but not a short pitch and putt. So, my sense is that during the season the potential customers are pretty much only those already paying to spend the day at Nickerson Beach. Could be wrong! But it's certainly not setting the world alight.

So let's take the model I proposed and transplant it a few miles north.  Let's say NYS decides they want to replace the soccer field at Valley Stream State Park with a nine-hole P&P.  It's the perfect size, no land purchase or clearing required.  Direct access to the parkway; parking lot already in place; surrounded by dense communities and one of LI's few black holes for public golf courses.  Maybe a nerd like me posts every once in a while about how there used to be a pre-WWII course right across the parkway.  NYS maintains and promotes it with some of the revenue crumbs from Bethpage.  Could it work then?

I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield.  A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out.  Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever.  If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

or age

Agree with almost everything except that… a soccer field is more age exclusive than golf. Not many 60-year-old soccer players out there. 

[Phil Carlucci]

I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield.  A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out.  Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever.  If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.

I agree with much of what you said, though I should have noted that I brought up this particular park since it's one I'm very familiar with (where I grew up), and the field is lightly used and located in an area that's teeming with park/schoolyard soccer fields.  I doubt it would make much of a ripple, especially if promoted as an entry-level amenity for kids and families in addition to regular golfers.

[Ben Hollerbach]

https://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/courses/template.asp?id=723&page=110328


we are building a new dual function practice range at our municipal golf facility which will have a six hole P&P built into the range using the target greens. The range would closed on the days/times we are using it as a P&P (see link above)


plan is to use this for juniors and/or beginers on select days/times.

I'm glad to seen someone push a project like this. The first time I read about Shorty's at Bandon I thought it was a concept that could become more common place.

[Mark Fedeli]

I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield.  A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out.  Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever.  If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.

I agree with much of what you said, though I should have noted that I brought up this particular park since it's one I'm very familiar with (where I grew up), and the field is lightly used and located in an area that's teeming with park/schoolyard soccer fields.  I doubt it would make much of a ripple, especially if promoted as an entry-level amenity for kids and families in addition to regular golfers.

It's an interesting location, for sure. I'm of the mind that pitch and putt needs to be attached to a full-size course, or driving range and trendy restaurant/bar, to be remotely successful. Even if it was a Doak or a C&C. That said, my views are clouded by the fact that I don't find pitch and putt to be particularly enjoyable (unlike par 3 courses, which I do enjoy). I liked it as a kid, and it's a good way to learn, but even then I still spent way more time at the driving range and practice green that were connected.


I had a blast at the Loma Club in San Diego, which has the cool restaurant/bar, and is connected to a bunch of other food and shopping options, and is somewhere between pitch and putt and par 3 course — but I went as a random complement to a larger golf trip, and in the six times I've been to San Diego since with my clubs, haven't thought much about returning, despite having gone back to the complex it's in for food/drinks.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Yeah, I don't know. That's barrier enough for me. I'm not a county resident, though my in-laws are, but they only go to Long Beach or sometimes Lido, and wouldn't be paying for a third. And if I wasn't planning on spending the day at the beach anyway, I'd be avoiding that island and all the crowds and traffic of beach season. I might suffer it to play Lido once in a while, but not a short pitch and putt. So, my sense is that during the season the potential customers are pretty much only those already paying to spend the day at Nickerson Beach. Could be wrong! But it's certainly not setting the world alight.

So let's take the model I proposed and transplant it a few miles north.  Let's say NYS decides they want to replace the soccer field at Valley Stream State Park with a nine-hole P&P.  It's the perfect size, no land purchase or clearing required.  Direct access to the parkway; parking lot already in place; surrounded by dense communities and one of LI's few black holes for public golf courses.  Maybe a nerd like me posts every once in a while about how there used to be a pre-WWII course right across the parkway.  NYS maintains and promotes it with some of the revenue crumbs from Bethpage.  Could it work then?

I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield.  A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out.  Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever.  If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.

The City of Atlanta shut down their municipal courses in the spring of 2020. The use of the parks during the shutdown naturally evolved into becoming city parks. Especially courses such as Candler Park and Chastain Park. Both are courses that are integrated into larger parks within the city and both exist in more affluent areas of town. It became commonplace to see people all over the courses having picnics, sunbathing, or playing a game of pickup. When the courses re-opened there was a big push by the surrounding communities to keep the courses as parkland, or provide some alternative as to how the properties could share their usage. Either provide "park days" where the course were closed or reduce the courses to smaller footprints by repurposing some of the holes.

(As an aside, some of these request seemed a bit missplaced as both courses had incorporated park land and were also located very close to other city run parks. Candler Park is a 55 acre park that is connected to the 200+ acre Freedom Park and is less than 2 miles from the 190 acre Piedmont Park.)

I attended a town hall meeting where the subject was being discussed, as to how the two entities could co-exist. There seemed to be pretty good momentum in the idea of dedicating one or two weekdays to using the courses as general parkland, that is until the discussion of financials came up. The cost to maintain the ground as a park, predominantly to pick up all the trash left behind by the park goers, was greater than the daily revenue generated by the course. From the cities perspective, if the properties were not golf courses collecting greens fees they could not fund the maintenance and upkeep on the land as anything else.

From a political standpoint, the people may rather have the property be a park, but operationally that could not happen without other downstream ramifications. Either an increase in public taxes or a fee levied on those groups who use new facilities will be needed to continue maintenance and operation. The one benefit of golfers, we do pay our own way.

[Kalen Braley]

I think AG hit the nail on the head for the political considerations.

Golf is pretty much one purpose..


But a soccer field can be used for multiple purposes:  Soccer, Lacrosse, Football, or a whole host of other informal stuff like kite flying, people working out, parents playing with young kids, older kids playing stickball/baseball, fairs, flea markets, social gatherings, etc). And for the informal stuff its almost always free use aka subsidized thru local taxes.

[Peter Sayegh]

I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield.  A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out.  Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever.  If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.

I agree with much of what you said, though I should have noted that I brought up this particular park since it's one I'm very familiar with (where I grew up), and the field is lightly used and located in an area that's teeming with park/schoolyard soccer fields.  I doubt it would make much of a ripple, especially if promoted as an entry-level amenity for kids and families in addition to regular golfers.

 I'm of the mind that pitch and putt needs to be attached to a full-size course, or driving range and trendy restaurant/bar, to be remotely successful. Even if it was a Doak or a C&C. That said, my views are clouded by the fact that I don't find pitch and putt to be particularly enjoyable (unlike par 3 courses, which I do enjoy). I liked it as a kid, and it's a good way to learn, but even then I still spent way more time at the driving range and practice green that were connected.

Mark, how do you differentiate a pitch and putt vs. a par three course?

Did you pay for your time on the range or green back then? What made those spots more enjoyable?

[Craig Sweet]

Doolin Pitch and Putt starts around minute eleven


https://youtu.be/48qfJ4wlmHI

[Joe Bausch]

When we were kids we often played pitch and putt at the Golf Farm in Gibbsboro , NJ.  It was simple and fun with the longest hole being about 40 yards. They mandated play off the mat tees so the maintenance issues were minimized to some extent. Great fun and definitely sharpened your short game.


Don't know why it isn't more popular as it used to be busy weeknights and packed on weekends.

It's still there, Archie, though I haven't been in years. 

https://golflandnj.com/

Photographic evidence!:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/GolfLand/index.html

[Joe Bausch]

I'll bet fewer than 10% of Philly golfers have ever heard of the Alverthorpe Park pitch-and-putt.  It has a couple of greens that will make you smile!


Photo tour here:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/AlverthorpePark_2022/index.html

[Mark Fedeli]

I would think the politics of that would be an absolute minefield.  A soccer field is going to be seen as high volume, inclusive, etc., with the field full from sunup to lights out.  Golf, rightly or wrongly, is NOT going to be seen as inclusive, whether because of POP user fees, or gender, or race, or age, or whatever.  If there is a locality that has done this, I'd love to know about it, and I'd bet that there have been more than a few golf venues of all sizes that have become other public recreation facilities, whether green space with trails (like an NLE of which I used to be a member) or soccer/baseball/softball, etc.

I agree with much of what you said, though I should have noted that I brought up this particular park since it's one I'm very familiar with (where I grew up), and the field is lightly used and located in an area that's teeming with park/schoolyard soccer fields.  I doubt it would make much of a ripple, especially if promoted as an entry-level amenity for kids and families in addition to regular golfers.

 I'm of the mind that pitch and putt needs to be attached to a full-size course, or driving range and trendy restaurant/bar, to be remotely successful. Even if it was a Doak or a C&C. That said, my views are clouded by the fact that I don't find pitch and putt to be particularly enjoyable (unlike par 3 courses, which I do enjoy). I liked it as a kid, and it's a good way to learn, but even then I still spent way more time at the driving range and practice green that were connected.

Mark, how do you differentiate a pitch and putt vs. a par three course?

Did you pay for your time on the range or green back then? What made those spots more enjoyable?

Peter, I view pitch and putts as being much shorter with mostly short pitches with sand wedges, versus a par 3 course that lets you hit a larger variety of irons and has more room to get creative. Pitch and putt is a casual recreation, par 3's are legit golf just smaller. Most pitch and putts I've played as an adult feel almost too insubstantial to even be worth the effort. And that counts the Cradle at Pinehurst, which I thought was far less fun than the putting course. The Sandbox at Sand Valley felt like a completely unique golf experience; the Cradle felt like a way to kill time, and not enough of it.


As a kid in the late 80s/early90s, I spent a lot of time at the aforementioned Golf Farm in South Jersey. They had a pitch and putt, driving range, and practice green (there was originally an executive course as well, but that land was sold off). I did have to pay for range balls and the pitch and putt. And I wouldn't say I necessarily enjoyed the driving range or free putting green more than pitch and putt at the time, I just remember using them a lot more because I wanted to practice and it was more bang for my limited bucks. I also spent a lot of time at the nearby Kresson Golf Course, which was a bigger course (~4500 yards) that was inexpensive and great for kids and players of all skills. Again, always chose that over the P&P.


@Joe Bausch, thanks for that walk down memory lane. I remember skulling one out of a bunker there and it going straight into the windshield of a car driving by. Hole #8, I believe. Was never approached about it. Looks like they (smartly) removed that bunker. I also just checked out your photos from Kresson. What a treat to see it again. Thank you.

[Philip Caccamise]

https://www2.cybergolf.com/sites/courses/template.asp?id=723&page=110328


we are building a new dual function practice range at our municipal golf facility which will have a six hole P&P built into the range using the target greens. The range would closed on the days/times we are using it as a P&P (see link above)


plan is to use this for juniors and/or beginers on select days/times.

That is so cool to hear.


Paxon Hollow is an absolute hidden gem of a course. Looks like the conditioning has improved drastically since I last played it.

[A.G._Crockett]

or age

Agree with almost everything except that… a soccer field is more age exclusive than golf. Not many 60-year-old soccer players out there. 

True, but not many 8 year olds on golf courses, either. 


In Alpharetta, GA, wher I used to live, there was/is a park where there was a huge, if informal, Hispanic soccer league on Sunday mornings, organized around the countries or even towns that the players had come from; uniforms and everything, all on their own.  Probably no 60 yr old players, but close.


Similarly, there was a group that came out on week nights looking for an empty softball field to play cricket.  Again, informal, but a LOT of guys, and a no cost to them.


In Econ, this is a “free rider” example, which golf courses typically do NOT have, but it was/is very cool to see, and a pretty high density use of the fields.  My point being, of course, that using those fields for a PNP would be a very tough sell to the public ar large.

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