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Tommy Williamsen

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Pin positions on a Biarritz
« on: July 28, 2022, 02:34:58 PM »
I played a course yesterday with very good biarritz. 235 yards from the back and 185 yards for me. The pin was in the front immediately in front of the swale. I hit my tee ball a little too well and it landed on the downslope and vaulted to the back of the green where I had a 100 foot putt. I don't remember see a front pin on a Biarritz before. Indeed many of them don't cut the front portion of the surace to green length. They have it as fringe.


Where is the pin most of the time on the holes you have played?
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Ira Fishman

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2022, 03:07:10 PM »
Yale was front when I played it last week. I four putted from the bottom of the swale. Best double I have made in a while.


Ira

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2022, 05:15:15 PM »
We now have a Biarritz green in San Diego Co. at San Vicente Resort in Ramona; 15 minutes north of Barona Creek. In the half dozen plays since the redesign the pin has been in the front, in the swale and obviously at the back. This particular green has a wicked false front so pins on the front tier are extreme demanding; hit the green or youíll be chipping from 30 yards back. In the swale was fun, just over the swale very demanding. During Sr. Team play the member thought the green was ridiculous; the surest sign youíve created something special!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 07:33:04 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tom_Doak

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2022, 05:18:30 PM »
Tommy:


On the Macdonald Biarritz holes with which I am familiar, most of them did NOT have green on the front pad or in the swale.  Yale always did, but as of the earliest 1926 aerial of Nassau County [when they were all quite new], Piping Rock, The Creek, Deepdale and The Links only had putting surface behind the swale.


A new Biarritz can have green in front of the swale if they want, but a restored one probably shouldn't.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2022, 08:16:15 PM »
Tommy:


On the Macdonald Biarritz holes with which I am familiar, most of them did NOT have green on the front pad or in the swale.  Yale always did, but as of the earliest 1926 aerial of Nassau County [when they were all quite new], Piping Rock, The Creek, Deepdale and The Links only had putting surface behind the swale.


A new Biarritz can have green in front of the swale if they want, but a restored one probably shouldn't.


When I was at Fishers Island this year the front was cut fringe length.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Philip Gordillo

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2022, 07:54:57 AM »
Since reopening, Metairie has not favored front or back on our #3 Biarritz.  Incidentally, I seem to have a harder time putting from the swale than through the swale.  Not sure if that is just me.  And a lateral putt from the swale can be terrifying.   :o

Michael Felton

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2022, 08:14:47 AM »
I've played Yale twice and both times it was on the front. I've played the Banks course at Forsgate once and it was in the swale. Likewise at Westhampton the one time I played it it was in the swale. Indian Hills has one on a par four and that was in the swale too. The ones I've played at the back typically didn't have green in front of it (Southampton springs to mind).

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2022, 08:49:21 AM »
Fox Chapel's Biarritz is cut with the swale sitting in the middle of the green. Was it originally this way or was that added when the course was restored?

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2022, 09:38:28 AM »
Fox Chapel's Biarritz is cut with the swale sitting in the middle of the green. Was it originally this way or was that added when the course was restored?
The really recent restoration was mostly about bunker work. It's been all green for over a decade. It was all green when the seniors played a major there a bunch of times in a row.

My daughter played a Biarritz at Bent Creek in Alabama in a college event, and the hole was cut on the front part both days. Oddly, it's an uphill Biarritz, and not that long - I think they hit 9I or so to it. It wasn't a big green, either, so asking them to hit longer clubs would have been tough.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2022, 04:01:02 PM »
Let's be clear about one thing, there are (a) Biarritz holes (par 3's of a certain length designed by or inspired by the designs of CBM/Raynor and Banks) and (b) holes that have a green with a swale in it.


Many of the holes brought up here fit the second category.  For example, the 5th at Bandon Trails has a big swale running through the green, but it is not a Biarritz hole.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Martin

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2022, 04:39:10 PM »
I've played Yale twice and both times it was on the front. I've played the Banks course at Forsgate once and it was in the swale. Likewise at Westhampton the one time I played it it was in the swale. Indian Hills has one on a par four and that was in the swale too. The ones I've played at the back typically didn't have green in front of it (Southampton springs to mind).




 
I have never seen the pin in the swale for regular or tournament play at Yale. I know it was there for a superintendents outing a few years ago. The new super, Jeff Austin has pinned it back more consistently since he arrived in April of 2021 than his predecessor.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 05:55:40 PM by Tim Martin »

Ira Fishman

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2022, 04:46:10 PM »
Let's be clear about one thing, there are (a) Biarritz holes (par 3's of a certain length designed by or inspired by the designs of CBM/Raynor and Banks) and (b) holes that have a green with a swale in it.


Many of the holes brought up here fit the second category.  For example, the 5th at Bandon Trails has a big swale running through the green, but it is not a Biarritz hole.


Sven,


Agree. But do you think #8 at Old Mac is a true Biarritz?


Ira

Jason Thurman

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2022, 06:49:10 PM »
Tommy:


On the Macdonald Biarritz holes with which I am familiar, most of them did NOT have green on the front pad or in the swale.  Yale always did, but as of the earliest 1926 aerial of Nassau County [when they were all quite new], Piping Rock, The Creek, Deepdale and The Links only had putting surface behind the swale.


A new Biarritz can have green in front of the swale if they want, but a restored one probably shouldn't.


It feels to me like most of the most celebrated Biarritz holes have a green-cut front and swale now. I think I'd like to see fringe-length swales celebrated more often. Feels like a much more interesting chipping/pitching test than a putting test.
"There will always be haters. Thatís just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

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Bob_Garvelink

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2022, 09:51:37 PM »
My home course (Angels Crossing - Vicksburg Michigan) has one of the best Biarritz I have ever played.  The 6th hole at Angels Crossing often time has the pin in front of the swale.  I often wonder why they dont put the pin in the middle to allow more golfers a chance at an ace :)  If you are in the area Angels Crossing is a course that everyone should play at least once in their lifetime :)
"Pure Michigan"

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2022, 10:24:18 PM »
Let's be clear about one thing, there are (a) Biarritz holes (par 3's of a certain length designed by or inspired by the designs of CBM/Raynor and Banks) and (b) holes that have a green with a swale in it.


Many of the holes brought up here fit the second category.  For example, the 5th at Bandon Trails has a big swale running through the green, but it is not a Biarritz hole.


Sven,


Agree. But do you think #8 at Old Mac is a true Biarritz?


Ira


Ira:


IMO, the 8th is too short to replicate the intentions of CBM and there was a mistaken emphasis on the "chasm."  As I've noted before, the location of the 12th would have been a great spot for a Biarritz hole.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

J_ Crisham

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2022, 10:08:19 AM »
At Blue Mound we do not use either the front portion or the swale on our 3rd hole- Biarritz. Itís a tough target to hit as its well bunkered and ranges from 180-210 yards. The others I am familiar with locally are CGC and ShoreAcres. SA utilizes the front half and swale, CGC does not.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2022, 08:02:39 PM »
Cabot Links #2 is a 230 yd par 3 with a Biarritz green.  The pin is normally at the back but I have seen it in the front about 20% of the time.

Eric LeFante

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2022, 11:42:06 AM »
Somerset Hills biarritz is very interesting because it's on a par 4, the front is green but is a false front and balls will not stay, and the swale is smaller in scale than others I've played. Majority of time the pin is in the swale and it's really fun to play when you are not in the swale and can use the backboard. The back pin is very tough since over the green drops off and there is deep rough.

Anthony Butler

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 01:43:49 PM »
The first of the three "Ocean" holes at Turtle Point on Kiawah Island has a Biarritz-style green. It plays about 190 from the back tee slightly uphill straight into the typical Kiawah 2-3 club wind.

https://kiawahresort.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Turtle-14.jpg


The three times I played it, pin was on the back shelf. I hit the front shelf twice and the swale once... just one par.  The back slope runs at an angle to the playing direction of the hole, so you have to take both the slope and borrow into account when you're not on the back shelf. It's probably the best hole on the course.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:43:25 PM by Anthony Butler »
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Adam Lawrence

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Re: Pin positions on a Biarritz
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 03:54:40 PM »
I remember spending a day at Streamsong with Bill Coore during the construction of the course. Jimbo Wright was shaping the sixteenth green, and I got very excited about the hole -- I thought it would end up being one of the world's most exciting one shotters.


The first time I played the Red (which was my second round there; I played the Blue on opening day), I was really looking forward to getting to sixteen. When we did, I was _crushed_ to see the flag at the front. It seemed to ruin the point of a biarritz.


Seeing my friend and playing partner David Langheim MG putting his tee shot into the unkempt sandy slope short of the green and above the lake, and then climbing down to get his ball, seemingly unaware or unconcerned about the large alligator sitting on the bank of the water a few feet below him (Dave is one of the most consistent golfers I've played with; another of our group said 'He's been playing with that ball for two years; he's not going to give it up) slightly lessened the disappointment. But not much.
Adam Lawrence

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