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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« on: July 28, 2022, 10:20:00 AM »
In a recent round, I had a younger guy excitedly explain to me what a Biarritz green looked like.  Our mutual friend explained I was very familiar with the concept. 


I find that this sort of conversation happens all the time. 


When I started here, I rarely brought up GCA concepts to random playing partners because they had muted interest at best.  Now I probably fear too much enthusiasm.


It probably is good thing that next generation sites such as the Fried Egg and No Laying Up have brought GCA concepts up to a new audience.   I rarely hear anything I have not heard before and the ideas have lost some luster. 


Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2022, 10:38:09 AM »
The downside is that the broad reach of social media can yield (has yielded?) a homogeneity in taste.  And an overemphasis (in my view) on what looks nice in the drone shots.

Brad Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2022, 10:40:30 AM »
It’s about 50-50 among my golfing buddies. Some of them would much rather talk about their newest shaft acquisition than the merits of an interesting par four. For them, of course there’s nothing more than a test bed for a new piece of equipment for a new swing thought. How they rate a course might be 90 or 100% conditioning.


My anecdotal evidence suggests there is no correlation between a golfer’s ability and their appreciation or knowledge of architecture. If anything, I find the better than scratch players care less than the average player. The accomplished player complains more about blind shots, false edges, sloping Fairways, etc.



Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2022, 11:30:00 AM »

It’s about 50-50 among my golfing buddies. Some of them would much rather talk about their newest shaft acquisition than the merits of an interesting par four. For them, of course there’s nothing more than a test bed for a new piece of equipment for a new swing thought. How they rate a course might be 90 or 100% conditioning.


My anecdotal evidence suggests there is no correlation between a golfer’s ability and their appreciation or knowledge of architecture. If anything, I find the better than scratch players care less than the average player. The accomplished player complains more about blind shots, false edges, sloping Fairways, etc.

SOME really, really good players seem to think that golf is a game of skill, and that since they have skill, those things are just an inconvenience.  Listening to tour players wax poetically about courses that are "right there in front of you," tells you all you need to know.

SOME bad players realize that golf is like life and that Bobby Jones was right when he wrote,

"On the golf course, a man may be the dogged victim of inexorable fate, be struck down by an appalling stroke of tragedy, become the hero of unbelievable melodrama, or the clown in a side-splitting comedy."
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2022, 12:15:15 PM »
Many of the Intermediate members at Rolling Green are awesome. They want to see the historical data and engage on Flynn.


  They cringe when I call them my acolytes.
AKA Mayday

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2022, 12:34:22 PM »
The accomplished player complains more about blind shots, false edges, sloping Fairways, etc.


If complaining isn't a form of appreciation my wife has wasted 40 years of marriage.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2022, 12:37:01 PM »
My anecdotal evidence suggests there is no correlation between a golfer’s ability and their appreciation or knowledge of architecture. If anything, I find the better than scratch players care less than the average player. The accomplished player complains more about blind shots, false edges, sloping Fairways, etc.
I wouldn’t disagree with this. Curious too how to some every green with a step in it was put there by Alister Mackenzie.
Atb

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2022, 12:49:55 PM »
In a recent round, I had a younger guy excitedly explain to me what a Biarritz green looked like.  Our mutual friend explained I was very familiar with the concept. 


I find that this sort of conversation happens all the time. 


When I started here, I rarely brought up GCA concepts to random playing partners because they had muted interest at best.  Now I probably fear too much enthusiasm.


It probably is good thing that next generation sites such as the Fried Egg and No Laying Up have brought GCA concepts up to a new audience.   I rarely hear anything I have not heard before and the ideas have lost some luster.

My experience is similar, but few people talk about architecture. The concepts of architecture are old hat, but the land is always unique...and sometimes you comet across gem of holes which make the day worth while. I pretty much play new courses to hopefully experience a gem or two.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2022, 01:16:53 PM »
The accomplished player complains more about blind shots, false edges, sloping Fairways, etc.


If complaining isn't a form of appreciation my wife has wasted 40 years of marriage.


34 years in my situation.


Ira

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2022, 01:26:14 PM »
This guy dominated the LIV press conference.


https://country-club-adjacent.simplecast.com/




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2022, 01:31:19 PM »
In a recent round, I had a younger guy excitedly explain to me what a Biarritz green looked like.  Our mutual friend explained I was very familiar with the concept. 


I find that this sort of conversation happens all the time. 


When I started here, I rarely brought up GCA concepts to random playing partners because they had muted interest at best.  Now I probably fear too much enthusiasm.


It probably is good thing that next generation sites such as the Fried Egg and No Laying Up have brought GCA concepts up to a new audience.   I rarely hear anything I have not heard before and the ideas have lost some luster.


Tell me about it.  :D


I do worry that all of the indoctrination has set them up to appreciate boilerplate templates more than good golf holes that fit their surroundings, and that many architects will pander to that as a result.  [I'd guess there have been as many new Biarritz greens built in the last 10-15 years as existed prior to then.]  Nevertheless, these newbies DO appreciate a great new course when they see it . . .


as long as it is next to the ocean.  ;)

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2022, 02:29:58 PM »
Many of the Intermediate members at Rolling Green are awesome. They want to see the historical data and engage on Flynn.


  They cringe when I call them my acolytes.


Of course when I think of acolytes, they are twelve year old kids in robes lighting candles.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2022, 02:31:31 PM »
Tom D,


Funny but not entirely fair. Sure a lot of people go to Bandon because they heard it was the cool thing to do or to Scotland and Ireland, but many of the ones I know genuinely became interested in architecture such that it was not only the by the water or big name courses that they sought out. There is a pretty large group (I am too anti-social to join them) from our club that makes regular trips to MP/PN—sure that is an in fashion choice on here but none of them are even lurkers—and neither of those courses make the Top 100. They just appreciate the courses.


I was in my 50s before I thought much about architecture. It strikes me as a very good thing for the game and the gca profession that more people do think about it.


Ira
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 02:34:48 PM by Ira Fishman »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2022, 02:42:42 PM »
I’d actually prefer less people to think about it, Ira…. It would be better all round if people just enjoyed (or didn’t) the courses they were playing without dissecting them through analysis.


It would actually free up architects to just build the best course rather than trying to impress those that know enough to be dangerous and/or are impressed by certain features or nods to the past.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2022, 03:04:49 PM »
Ally,


A fair point. Appreciate and have fun should trump dry analysis. However, appreciation of what goes into the architect’s decisions does enhance one’s appreciation of the course.


Ira

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2022, 03:06:35 PM »
Minor thread speed bump here, but we are experiencing a next generation epiphany in the Walter J. Travis Society. We are looking at the 20s/30s/40s with interest in Travis, to keep the society alive. Founders are in their 80s and 90s, and their work should live on.

We WANT kids talking about Travis.
Maybe for 2022
~Eden Valley
~Hillview
~Pinehurst (NY)
~Kis 'N Greens
~Pine Meadows
~18 Mile Creek
~Greenwood
~Shawnee
~Leroy
~

PPallotta

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2022, 03:09:00 PM »
Many of the people I play with, young and old, including me, fret about trying to cure their slice, and wonder why they can't draw their 3 wood, and are constantly experimenting with techniques that'll have them hitting it longer. Maybe one reason that newbies (and oldies) can "appreciate a great new course when they see it", particularly if it's next to an ocean, is because that kind of setting and playing experience is the only thing able to get them out of their own heads and instead looking out at the world.
We're always happier when looking out than when looking in.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2022, 03:18:33 PM »
I’d actually prefer less people to think about it, Ira…. It would be better all round if people just enjoyed (or didn’t) the courses they were playing without dissecting them through analysis.

It would actually free up architects to just build the best course rather than trying to impress those that know enough to be dangerous and/or are impressed by certain features or nods to the past.


While this sounds good in theory, in practical practice it seems to have been the opposite with decades of mailed-in and mediocre DS 1-2s out here.

Maybe if golfers started giving a crap and being more thoughtful and played elsewhere, there would be better efforts...

It would seem a course like Common Ground is the poster child for what can be done on what seems to be was a very average site.   Yes it no world beater, but its not uninteresting either...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 03:20:28 PM by Kalen Braley »

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2022, 03:25:03 PM »

We're always happier when looking out than when looking in.
Golf or otherwise, that's a big reach.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2022, 03:51:59 PM »
I’d actually prefer less people to think about it, Ira…. It would be better all round if people just enjoyed (or didn’t) the courses they were playing without dissecting them through analysis.

It would actually free up architects to just build the best course rather than trying to impress those that know enough to be dangerous and/or are impressed by certain features or nods to the past.


While this sounds good in theory, in practical practice it seems to have been the opposite with decades of mailed-in and mediocre DS 1-2s out here.

Maybe if golfers started giving a crap and being more thoughtful and played elsewhere, there would be better efforts...

It would seem a course like Common Ground is the poster child for what can be done on what seems to be was a very average site.   Yes it no world beater, but its not uninteresting either...


I’m not saying golfers shouldn’t care. Generally, they want to play the courses they like and they get bored with the ones they don’t. The cream still rises to the top… you just don’t have endless blogs talking about what is cool because they are following the latest trends. I think this “love of architecture” is actually narrowing the appreciation, not widening it.


Anyway, see my recent “influencer” thread. I’m going to end up going down the same rabbit hole here!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2022, 04:05:22 PM »
Hey Ally,

I would agree this is a nuanced point.  Perhaps I differ in thinking that people should be as educated on as many topics as is feasibly possible and especially so for those they're interested in.

I recall reading the home page for this site many years ago when I first found it, and from time to time i'll re-read it, but the messaging seems to be very inclusive, almost like "the water is fine, come on in", an open arms/welcoming thing. And perhaps understanding architecture will become overrun by the eye candy driven influencers, but from where I sit, it seems the best courses not only play interesting and keep you engaged, but are beautiful too. 

So I guess my default would be to share with all who wish to receive it...

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2022, 04:06:17 PM »
Ally,


It sounds as if you actually want more people to think independently about architecture and fewer to not follow those who claim to think.


Ira

PPallotta

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2022, 04:27:46 PM »
Ira - yes, and Ally's wish sounds like a recipe for more nuanced assessments, finer critical distinctions, and less rhetorical bombast and dichotomous thinking -- which since the dawn of the populist press to the earliest days of television up until the very present time of social media and ubiquitous influencers and talking heads has been a dominant feature of our public discourse exactly never.
Peter S - yes, reach big fail bigger is my motto -- but of course I'm not referring to our times of fruitful self reflection or earnest soul searching.


« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 04:39:10 PM by PPallotta »

MCirba

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Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2022, 04:34:32 PM »
I personally LOVE the fact that these young guys are getting it way, way before most of us oldsters ever did and I find it intellectually and emotionally engaging to discuss things like sustainability, variety, playability, and such with them.   It keeps me younger.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The next generation of Architecture Nerds
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2022, 04:43:21 PM »
I personally LOVE the fact that these young guys are getting it way, way before most of us oldsters ever did and I find it intellectually and emotionally engaging to discuss things like sustainability, variety, playability, and such with them.   It keeps me younger.


As a boomer do you give them credit for sustainability?

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