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Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
We've all played with "them."


Pickup Peter posts a 69 while picking up five 6 footers that were given to him as part of a match. "Those were good" he says, but his make percentage from 6 feet? 45%? No time for argument, he's off to play a US Am qualifier at Camargo where he'll post a tidy 84.


Meanwhile Big Money Boris's eyes grow as large as saucers on the range when a big money game is dicussed, closely eye-humping every dollar that goes in the pot. Guess what, he comes in with a 73 at a 12 index after shooting a 91 in a more casual setting the round previous. "I just got hot I guess." Sure ya did bub.


The 9 hole score posting thread got me thinking: Which is the worse problem in today's game? Vanity-capping or sandbagging? Can we blame the LIV tour for this?


"This topic is OTTTTTT!!!" you shriek. Just a second now wildman, I'm getting to that. How does architecture support handicap chicanery? Does a player that plays a hazard-laden home course have an inherent advantage building up a handicap premium and applying that premium to an easier course in competition? Does playing a course with an easy wide-open front 9 and constantly skipping a more difficult back 9 allow the vanity-capper to keep an index that stokes his ego?
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2022, 08:15:26 PM »
Pretty simple, the sand-bagger is cheating his opponent whereas, as annoying as he is, the Hollywood Handicap guy is just cheating himself.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2022, 08:29:55 PM »
Pretty simple, the sand-bagger is cheating his opponent whereas, as annoying as he is, the Hollywood Handicap guy is just cheating himself.


Agreed, with one significant exception; vanity handicaps can really screw up flighted tournaments, both which golfers go into which flights, and, in turn, the results.  For instance, if each flight has 8 players, vanity caps push legit guys down a flight, which skews the results.


I’ll add this. In my experience, a lot of the complaints from low indexes who lost to a higher index were vanity caps who aren’t very good when they have to play fully under the Rules. Most of the guys who consistently do well in net comps are just guys who play every round fully under the Rules, and usually for a few dollars.  They don’t panic when their ball is in a divot, or they have to take stroke and distance, Orr they have to actually putt out, etc, and they can handle their nerves. Vanity guys can’t do any of that, but they sure can bitch later.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2022, 08:30:33 PM »
Hollywood Handicap guy is just cheating himself.


And his partner

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2022, 08:32:00 PM »
Vanity handicappers are far greater in number.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2022, 09:11:07 PM »
Vanity handicappers are far greater in number.


I feel like the system, with a net double as a max score, inherently creates vanity caps.  Net double is better than the old system that was max double for 0-9 hcp.

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2022, 09:42:51 PM »
Vanity handicappers are far greater in number.


I feel like the system, with a net double as a max score, inherently creates vanity caps.  Net double is better than the old system that was max double for 0-9 hcp.


Agree with this, many ESC doubles in casual play would end up as triples, quads, and "others" in tournament play, making the player look way better in terms of index.
Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty.

--Harry Vardon

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2022, 10:05:19 PM »
Pretty simple, the sand-bagger is cheating his opponent whereas, as annoying as he is, the Hollywood Handicap guy is just cheating himself.


It's not so much the case in the US, but in the UK, tournament fields are frequently determined by handicap, so vanity caps play in those events when better players with higher handicaps do not. Other than that I agree entirely.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2022, 10:26:38 PM »
Vanity handicappers are far greater in number.

How do you know this?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2022, 02:03:53 AM »
I don’t know how vanity handicapping even exists. On our side of the world, posting a score when you’ve picked up even a 6-incher is a serious no-no. Ball goes in the hole unless you scratch that hole in Stableford comps.


If this is now happening in casual rounds, it’s a US disease that has spread over here with the advent of the WHS.

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2022, 08:25:51 AM »
Vanity handicappers are far greater in number.
Agreed. I'm one of 'em.   ;D
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Cal Carlisle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2022, 08:32:45 AM »
I don’t know how vanity handicapping even exists. On our side of the world, posting a score when you’ve picked up even a 6-incher is a serious no-no. Ball goes in the hole unless you scratch that hole in Stableford comps.


It defies logic. I knew a guy that was guilty of this and he had a hell of a time at Member Guests. I'm talking a legit 20 handicap calling himself a 10. The problem was the putting. He couldn't putt, and as a result, would just kind of do a one-handed slap at anything inside 8 feet (counting it as a one-putt). People finally stopped inviting him because they got tired of getting destroyed.


The whole idea of it is completely asinine. ::)

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2022, 08:33:27 AM »
Warm agreement with Ally. With any card that you have to sign for ('Casual Round' or otherwise) and is then submitted for handicap, over here in the UK  the ball must be putted out. Or do I just play at old-fashioned clubs?

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2022, 08:45:26 AM »
I don’t know how vanity handicapping even exists. On our side of the world, posting a score when you’ve picked up even a 6-incher is a serious no-no. Ball goes in the hole unless you scratch that hole in Stableford comps.

If this is now happening in casual rounds, it’s a US disease that has spread over here with the advent of the WHS.
Ally, in the U.S. putts are given all the time to help with pace of play. Anywhere I've played 3' putts or shorter are commonly given - especially in non-competitive rounds. Thus, handicaps tend to be lower because of it (my own included). That said, this can work against you in a competitive situation or tournaments where everything has to be putted out. Unlike some of our U.K. brethren, we don't see it as a major issue or problem in the U.S. It kind of is what it is and we don't dwell on the ethics of it too much.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2022, 08:46:41 AM »
Warm agreement with Ally. With any card that you have to sign for ('Casual Round' or otherwise) and is then submitted for handicap, over here in the UK  the ball must be putted out. Or do I just play at old-fashioned clubs?


I'm confused. EVERY round you play unless you are alone is supposed to be posted regardless of it being a tournament or a casual round?
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2022, 09:12:24 AM »
Warm agreement with Ally. With any card that you have to sign for ('Casual Round' or otherwise) and is then submitted for handicap, over here in the UK  the ball must be putted out. Or do I just play at old-fashioned clubs?


I'm confused. EVERY round you play unless you are alone is supposed to be posted regardless of it being a tournament or a casual round?
People post rounds played alone in the U.S. all the time. I've done it this for several years without issue. Scores are accepted based on the honor system. I can go on the USGA's GHIN app right now and post a score for a course I didn't even play if I wanted. There's nothing that prevents someone from doing so. Thus, you can only hope people are being honest about the score they shot on a particular course and day.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2022, 09:17:03 AM »
Warm agreement with Ally. With any card that you have to sign for ('Casual Round' or otherwise) and is then submitted for handicap, over here in the UK  the ball must be putted out. Or do I just play at old-fashioned clubs?


I'm confused. EVERY round you play unless you are alone is supposed to be posted regardless of it being a tournament or a casual round?
People post rounds played alone in the U.S. all the time. I've done it this for several years without issue. Scores are accepted based on the honor system. I can go on the USGA's GHIN app right now and post a score for a course I didn't even play if I wanted. There's nothing that prevents someone from doing so. Thus, you can only hope people are being honest about the score they shot on a particular course and day.


Of course the whole thing is based on the honor system. That's why it makes no sense that you can't post a round  that you play alone. You could be on vacation and play with 3 strangers and post whatever you want.


My statement was based on what Richard said. I got the impression they are only posting tournament rounds.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 09:18:43 AM by Rob Marshall »
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

David Federman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2022, 10:42:55 AM »
Although sand-bagging may be worse, both are at their core, simply dishonest.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 11:36:32 AM by David Federman »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2022, 11:02:50 AM »
The guys that have the truest handicaps are those that play a lot of competitive rounds. This is not limited to low digit players but anyone who competes in a fair number of medal play events whether at the club, state or national level. It is instinctive for these guys to putt out regardless of length. I pray that I don’t get a vanity guy as a partner because they never putt out anything inside of five feet unless required. When I see someone drag a couple of five footers early in the round because his partner is already in the hole and take par it’s a pretty good indication that their handicap is too low.




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2022, 11:04:48 AM »
Pretty simple, the sand-bagger is cheating his opponent whereas, as annoying as he is, the Hollywood Handicap guy is just cheating himself.
It's not so much the case in the US, but in the UK, tournament fields are frequently determined by handicap, so vanity caps play in those events when better players with higher handicaps do not.
I thought stopping this situation occurring was one of the reasons why the WHS was introduced!
Atb

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2022, 11:39:39 AM »
When the WHS was announced I was saddened that it meant the rest of the world using the US system instead of the US moving to the CONGU system of medal days and only tournament rounds counting.


The idea of grinding over every 2-5 footer when playing a match in order to post a score is ludicrous from a fun or a pace of play standpoint. I would be surprised if 5% of posted rounds in the US are 100% legit on any given day. There is a reason that shooting your handicap in most events is more than enough to get in the money in most serious events. Even at my club, I rarely play in net events as the whole conversation of sandbagging vs vanity handicaps takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. We all know that anyone that beats you net is a sandbagger and any partner that you lose with is a vanity guy.





Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2022, 12:34:24 PM »
Pretty simple, the sand-bagger is cheating his opponent whereas, as annoying as he is, the Hollywood Handicap guy is just cheating himself.
It's not so much the case in the US, but in the UK, tournament fields are frequently determined by handicap, so vanity caps play in those events when better players with higher handicaps do not.
I thought stopping this situation occurring was one of the reasons why the WHS was introduced!
Atb
That was a slightly different point. For the big UK amateur events, players on the US system would be lower just because of the way the system worked and so they'd get in and others on CONGU wouldn't. WHS removes that difference (or at least helps to). Vanity caps still get into those things though. In the US, virtually all events have qualifiers so handicap has little to do with it.


I suspect that most of those big amateur events are based more on WAGR position than handicap, so it's less of an impact now.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2022, 12:42:11 PM »
I completely ignore the “instruction” to post every round. I just do it the old way and post competition rounds (usually one per week)…. I like the extra pressure it puts on me… makes those rounds feel different.


Very occasionally I post a casual round. If I do that, I am required to nominate the round before I start, I am required to hole out all putts and I am required to have someone who is playing with me mark my card.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2022, 01:17:08 PM »
I completely ignore the “instruction” to post every round. I just do it the old way and post competition rounds (usually one per week)…. I like the extra pressure it puts on me… makes those rounds feel different.


Very occasionally I post a casual round. If I do that, I am required to nominate the round before I start, I am required to hole out all putts and I am required to have someone who is playing with me mark my card.
My index would be a lot higher if I could choose which rounds I posted.  You are not required to hole out all putts to post a score.  It's not even encouraged in match play. 

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Handicaps: Which problem is worse? Vanity-capping or Sandbagging?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2022, 01:35:52 PM »
I completely ignore the “instruction” to post every round. I just do it the old way and post competition rounds (usually one per week)…. I like the extra pressure it puts on me… makes those rounds feel different.


Very occasionally I post a casual round. If I do that, I am required to nominate the round before I start, I am required to hole out all putts and I am required to have someone who is playing with me mark my card.
My index would be a lot higher if I could choose which rounds I posted.  You are not required to hole out all putts to post a score.  It's not even encouraged in match play.


Why would it be higher? Do you know how you are going to play before you tee off?


My index would be a lot lower if I started to give myself a bunch of putts. I never post a score whilst playing matchplay. Kind of defeats the strategy and idea that it is a different form of the game.

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