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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2022, 08:12:55 AM »
Even worse. I believe pensions are based on cuts made. This smells like a method to decrease the number of players who will become vested because you no longer will be able to hang on as the 100-125 guy and make cut after cut. It's immoral to make pension changes on the down low.


Does the PGA Tour have an unfunded liability problem? I know I do.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2022, 08:24:41 AM »
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2022/6/22/monahan-rolls-out-pga-tour-schedule-tweaks-that


At least this event has brought me back to Geoff's site. He missed that the commish looks to be wearing a Panda to discuss labor issues. The guy should go for that alone. The members he represents that are 100-125 on tour can't afford that watch. Dummy.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2022, 08:33:42 AM »
Tim, I can't predict the outcome of this development but the analogy with the NFL/AFL or the NBA/ABA has serious flaws.  In both cases, the players had no role in the ownership of the sport.  It was restricted to a group of mostly rich owners (Green Bay excepted)   The leagues were started by another group of wealthy individuals who wanted "in", whether for ego or economic reasons.  The players were largely underpaid and the leagues were relatively small so there was an ample supply of players to make for entertaining play.  There was no "ethical" issue involved in the new leagues' ownership.  The mergers occurred as a means of cost control and to improve public perception of the competition.  While the same factors might ultimately militate toward a compromise, the Saudis are not motivated in this case by economics so that they have less incentive to compromise.


Here the Tour was founded by the players and while the Tour has a well established management and outside directors, the Player Directors continue to have a significant say.  There is no "ownership".  Instead, each tournament has individual sponsors.  Indeed, one of the purposes of requiring releases is to obtain representative fields to satisfy sponsors.  But if a sponsor is dissatisfied or becomes unpalatable, the Tour can find a replacement without significant harm.


LIV has one sponsor with some significant baggage.  The competitive aspect, which was unchanged in the NFL/ABA examples, is altered by the guaranteed money, the 54 hole format, the team concept etc.


I could suggest many other differences.  But I find it interesting that I have yet to hear any of the players who have jumped discuss LIV's plans for charity.  Clearly there are tax benefits to the Tour but it is undeniable that the current system benefits many charities.  Will the Saudis do the same?  The web site for LIV is notably silent.


Again, how this shakes out is beyond anyone's predictive powers.  But we can do better in our analysis of analogous situations and of the likely impact if the LIV tour succeeds.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2022, 08:56:41 AM »
Shelly,


Guys like us know the people who fund the PGA charities through their participation in local tournaments. I have a higher opinion of wealthy golfers than to believe that without golf they won't give. Please don't play the children will go hungry without the PGA card.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2022, 09:56:39 AM »
Barney,
           The selectivity of your cynicism continues to have me shaking my head.  The motives of those you disapprove of are constantly questioned or belittled.  But the sponsoring companies will continue to contribute in like amounts if the tour is diminished.  Maybe you know the people running those companies, as you suggest, but I don't.  I have been involved in charity fundraising for a long time and it isn't easy.


            What is indisputable is that the tour raises large amounts for charity and LIV is silent as are the players who have signed up.  This is a major difference.  I further note that this was not the main thrust of my comment.  Your response failed to address the remainder.


          A last observation; your criticism of the revised tour plans has been proposed by an organization that was formed by the players and whose Board has significant player participation.  If it is that bad for the players they have a remedy.  Where is the player input at LIV?  You seem to trust the intentions and  of the Saudi's and Greg Norman more than the Tour.  I question that conclusion.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2022, 10:16:41 AM »
Shelly,


Labor relations have been the crux of my "working" life. I also mix oil and rock to build roads. So, I would be enjoying this circus no matter what can't miss professional organization was failing.


Any self-respecting charitable organization would have to decline Saudi money at this time. I'm sure private discussions are at hand.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2022, 10:39:49 AM »
Barney,


  I am glad that you are enjoying it.  I am trying to analyze it.  Incidentally, do you think there may be a reason why charitable organizations might avoid Saudi money?  But we have already gone far astray from GCA so I won't pursue this moral issue.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2022, 10:43:46 AM »
The coal companies where my business is located put up billboards on the highway offering hourly wages twice the norm. When people decide that they want to give it a try employers will welcome them back if a position is available. You don't suspend them for life and make everyone else who works for you question what you will do to them next.


It's like I'm watching a guy do everything possible to ruin a good thing. If the commish had ignored the LIV all this would have gone away. Just like coal soon will.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #83 on: June 23, 2022, 11:05:02 AM »
Barney,  It is more complicated than your analogy but I'll just let it go 

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2022, 11:06:49 AM »
I loved this bit, considering Koepkas route to the PGA Tour.


You just heard from Exhibit A, Scottie Scheffler's meteoric rise over the last four years: Korn Ferry TOUR Player of the Year in 2019, PGA TOUR Rookie of the Year in 2020, Ryder Cup Rookie in 2021, World No. 1, FedExCup leader, having won four times in six weeks, including the Masters tournament. His journey is that of a true meritocracy. If you're good enough, you will rise to the top; and if you don't continue to earn that top spot, someone else as hungry and as talented is right there to take your place. Again, that's the unique beauty of what the TOUR has and always will offer to fans. It's damn good and it's worth fighting for.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #85 on: June 23, 2022, 11:16:15 AM »
Barney,  It is more complicated than your analogy but I'll just let it go


That's why I don't make Panda money.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #86 on: June 23, 2022, 11:20:10 AM »
This entire scenario is a reflection on the difficulty of retaining employees in this environment. We are all on one side or the other.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2022, 11:32:31 AM »
Tim, I can't predict the outcome of this development but the analogy with the NFL/AFL or the NBA/ABA has serious flaws.  In both cases, the players had no role in the ownership of the sport.  It was restricted to a group of mostly rich owners (Green Bay excepted)   The leagues were started by another group of wealthy individuals who wanted "in", whether for ego or economic reasons.  The players were largely underpaid and the leagues were relatively small so there was an ample supply of players to make for entertaining play.  There was no "ethical" issue involved in the new leagues' ownership.  The mergers occurred as a means of cost control and to improve public perception of the competition.  While the same factors might ultimately militate toward a compromise, the Saudis are not motivated in this case by economics so that they have less incentive to compromise.


Here the Tour was founded by the players and while the Tour has a well established management and outside directors, the Player Directors continue to have a significant say.  There is no "ownership".  Instead, each tournament has individual sponsors.  Indeed, one of the purposes of requiring releases is to obtain representative fields to satisfy sponsors.  But if a sponsor is dissatisfied or becomes unpalatable, the Tour can find a replacement without significant harm.


LIV has one sponsor with some significant baggage.  The competitive aspect, which was unchanged in the NFL/ABA examples, is altered by the guaranteed money, the 54 hole format, the team concept etc.


I could suggest many other differences.  But I find it interesting that I have yet to hear any of the players who have jumped discuss LIV's plans for charity.  Clearly there are tax benefits to the Tour but it is undeniable that the current system benefits many charities.  Will the Saudis do the same?  The web site for LIV is notably silent.


Again, how this shakes out is beyond anyone's predictive powers.  But we can do better in our analysis of analogous situations and of the likely impact if the LIV tour succeeds.


Shel,
   Sorry I inspired so much thought so early. As always, your thoughts are wise and carry weight.
   My simple point is, the more name players that jump to the LIV tour, the more likely the PGA Tour will be pressured – by sponsors, especially, and perhaps television rightsholders – to make a deal with the Saudis or simply reverse their position on suspending players who jump. It won't matter to the sponsors and TV that the backer has a horrible human rights record or anything else. They will want their money's worth. (LIV has had the effect of highlighting the Saudi record to many who knew little of their misdeeds, so the sportswashing plan has already backfired.)
   The European circuit – sponsored by DP World, a UAE-based company – has so far taken a hands-off approach. LIV players are in Euro fields, partially at the behest of sponsors. If that holds, we have a real-world test as to which tour's stance is more beneficial.
   The greatest harm if LIV succeeds will be to the many charities Tour weeks benefit. A diminished PGA Tour would likely diminish charity dollars as well. Rich Harvest Farms announced that some local charities will get proceeds from their LIV hosting but no minimum dollar figure has been mentioned. Sports Business Journal reported June 2 LIV has a $100 million charity wing, but I have no specifics.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #88 on: June 23, 2022, 12:36:19 PM »
The coal companies where my business is located put up billboards on the highway offering hourly wages twice the norm. When people decide that they want to give it a try employers will welcome them back if a position is available. You don't suspend them for life and make everyone else who works for you question what you will do to them next.


It's like I'm watching a guy do everything possible to ruin a good thing. If the commish had ignored the LIV all this would have gone away. Just like coal soon will.


There was a time where quitting the USGA meant you’d never be hired again.  Or at least that was the rumor in the industry.  Fortunately that went away quite a while ago, but I remember hearing that about companies in the tech industry back in the 80s.


When I left Intel in 1983 to start a new company it was made clear we’d burned our bridge and wouldn’t be welcome back. They told everyone who wanted to join us over the next couple of years the same thing and even told some employees that they couldn’t give a farewell party to one guy. Aboit 15 years later they did hire one of founders back.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 12:40:10 PM by JohnVDB »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2022, 12:54:22 PM »
In 83 I would have said the same thing. No doubt management broke the bonds of loyalty and trust first.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2022, 05:25:17 PM »
For the players that have taken the stance about others leaving based on money and greed, do you think any of them would turn down the newly announced prize money on offer in the 8 events next year?
Does the source of the $ matter to you?


Did the tour just change the rules on the dudes that keep their card by finishing just in the top 125 each year? People hone their games to keep their card. Make strategic decisions and schedule events for that purpose. I hope they give these guys more than a few months notice.
The top 70 are fully exempt. The rest (71+) have the fall season to get into the top 125.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #91 on: June 24, 2022, 05:01:03 AM »
The Times is reporting today that LIV players are to be banned from the Scottish Open to be played at the Renaissance Club. The Scottish Open is co-sanctioned by DP World Tour and the PGA Tour.


Niall

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2022, 06:17:15 AM »
The Times is reporting today that LIV players are to be banned from the Scottish Open to be played at the Renaissance Club. The Scottish Open is co-sanctioned by DP World Tour and the PGA Tour.


Niall


I wonder how much this is in connection with the PGA Tour co sanction. Will the LIV players be banned from next weeks Irish Open?

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #93 on: June 24, 2022, 08:18:54 AM »
DP World Tour confirms member sanctions - DP World Tour confirms member sanctions - Articles - DP World Tour (europeantour.com)


• They will be fined £100,000*
• They have been advised that they are suspended from participating in the following DP World Tour tournaments - the Genesis Scottish Open and Barbasol Championship (July 7-10) and the Barracuda Championship (July 14-17) and have been removed from the entry lists of these events where applicable.
It is important to note that participation in a further conflicting tournament or tournaments without the required release may incur further sanctions.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #94 on: June 24, 2022, 08:39:10 AM »
DP World Tour confirms member sanctions - DP World Tour confirms member sanctions - Articles - DP World Tour (europeantour.com)


• They will be fined £100,000*
• They have been advised that they are suspended from participating in the following DP World Tour tournaments - the Genesis Scottish Open and Barbasol Championship (July 7-10) and the Barracuda Championship (July 14-17) and have been removed from the entry lists of these events where applicable.
It is important to note that participation in a further conflicting tournament or tournaments without the required release may incur further sanctions.




I have no dog in this fight, but I do find it ironic how preserving "the meritocratic ecosystem" of the existing structure [for the players], just happens to also support the status quo of the existing Tour structure [for the executives].  None of the latter have to go out and "earn their living" week to week, and they seem very upset about having to compete with a new rival.






Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #95 on: June 24, 2022, 09:00:14 AM »
DP World Tour confirms member sanctions - DP World Tour confirms member sanctions - Articles - DP World Tour (europeantour.com)


• They will be fined £100,000*
• They have been advised that they are suspended from participating in the following DP World Tour tournaments - the Genesis Scottish Open and Barbasol Championship (July 7-10) and the Barracuda Championship (July 14-17) and have been removed from the entry lists of these events where applicable.
It is important to note that participation in a further conflicting tournament or tournaments without the required release may incur further sanctions.


All PGA Tour sanctioned events. Not DP only events. Are any LIV guys playing in Germany this week? Or signed up for Ireland next week?


The last line doesn’t say a whole lot. ‘may’ Incur further sanctions

Phil Burr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #96 on: June 24, 2022, 09:16:43 AM »
It seems to me that the ability to earn OWGR points will be the key measuring stick of LIV’s legitimacy and long-term success.  One’s OWGR is essential to eligibility for majors.  Consider the members of the OWGR board of governors:


Jay Monaghan, PGA Tour commissioner
Keith Pelley, DP World Tour CEO
Mike Whan, USGA CEO
Martin Slumbers, R&A CEO
Seth Waugh, PGA of America executive director
Will Jones & Keith Waters, ANGC executive directors


The OWGR has a lengthy and complicated set of rules by which tours and individual events are sanctioned and thereby considered for OWGR points.  Norman has said that LIV has applied for recognition in the OWGR.  The board of governors seemingly has great authority to legitimize LIV by allowing points to be earned.  My guess is that they will allow LIV results to earn points, but at a watered-down level similar to say, the Hero, a limited field event with no cut.  Will the elephant-hunters (Brooks, Bryson, etc,) who’ve joined LIV regret their decisions if they are unable to accrue sufficient OWGR points to maintain eligibility for the majors they claim to target?

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #97 on: June 24, 2022, 09:24:31 AM »
Interesting information on how the OWGR works - http://www.owgr.com/about?tabID={A01A4052-F0DF-4DDE-9BE2-940A54F2CA50}


Looks like they already have 35+ tours, would seem odd if they do not allow LIV Golf.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #98 on: June 24, 2022, 09:56:00 AM »
The Times is reporting today that LIV players are to be banned from the Scottish Open to be played at the Renaissance Club. The Scottish Open is co-sanctioned by DP World Tour and the PGA Tour.


Niall
Doesn't sound very "open"...

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Koepka to LIV
« Reply #99 on: June 24, 2022, 11:18:55 AM »
I’m pretty far removed from my days playing, and pretty sure some things have changed, but a few things from my experiences.


The response to the LIV from the tour this week is pretty much SOP
A)When Norman proposed the World Tour in the late 90’s, he got pretty steamrolled but the PGA TOur machine .  Finchem and the board not only aggressively went after Greg to defeat him (competition battle) but also managed to find the resources the start the WGC that the tour would control.


B) when a group of players started (around 2000) to form a player’s association  (couldn’t unionize) Finchem again went to battle.  The tour would not allow an audit. One of the points of contention was that the tour was playing for a smaller % of revenues than the other main sports.  At the main players meeting addressing this, Finchem announce that the tour “discovered “ that there were funds that had to be dispersed to the players and created new pension bonus pools with these “new” funds.
And now there just happens to be funding for the new events while also seriously impacting the exemption category for top 125 possibly.


There is more, especially the conflicting release rules.


The tour will always say it’s the players tour.  It provides a great place to play and compete, but, in my experience, it was about Ponte Vedre as much or more than the players.


It is facing a serious, dangerous challenge right now, and is showing its vulnerability in its response.  DP is trying to side with the tour somewhat, but I’d it suited the pGA Tour, I have no doubt the tour would torpedo DP if it needed to Protect  it’s own status

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