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David_Tepper

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OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« on: June 19, 2022, 06:56:04 PM »
He wins his first major as a caddie after 40 years of caddying for some of the best players in the game.

Marty Bonnar

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2022, 07:24:04 PM »
Caddies are a total waste of space and time. Golf would be immeasurably better without them.
F.
Assembled in Michigan from foreign parts.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2022, 07:33:41 PM »
Caddies are a total waste of space and time. Golf would be immeasurably better without them.
F.


That might be a tough sell to guys on the TOUR.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Jim Sullivan

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2022, 07:40:31 PM »
Its also incredibly idiotic. Sorry Marty, but terrible take.

David_Tepper

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2022, 07:45:55 PM »
Billy Foster tells some great stories about caddying for Seve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrP5R3gFAgo

Marty Bonnar

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2022, 08:43:02 PM »
Its also incredibly idiotic. Sorry Marty, but terrible take.


Do tell what caddies bring to the game.
Assembled in Michigan from foreign parts.

JohnVDB

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2022, 08:49:13 PM »
I was the walking official with Lee Westwood and Billy at the 2007 and 2010 US Opens (2 rounds).  Billy is a great guy and has a wonderful sense of humor.  Im very happy for him.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2022, 09:18:08 PM »
Its like a bring a Grip working on an Academy Award winning picture. The sense of accomplishment must be overwhelming. We should all experience such success. Congrats. Congrats indeed.

John Mayhugh

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2022, 01:01:20 PM »
It's odd to me when people credit caddies with tournament wins. They are a part of the staff and maybe the player wouldn't have won with someone else carrying their clubs, but the caddie doesn't hit a single shot.

How many majors did Steve Williams "win" when he didn't happen to be carrying for Woods?

Paul Jones

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2022, 01:21:52 PM »
It's odd to me when people credit caddies with tournament wins. They are a part of the staff and maybe the player wouldn't have won with someone else carrying their clubs, but the caddie doesn't hit a single shot.

How many majors did Steve Williams "win" when he didn't happen to be carrying for Woods?


It is the same way instructors get credit for a win.  They all play part, how important is that part depends on player and his needs.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

David_Tepper

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2022, 01:22:57 PM »
John M. and John K. -

The reason I started this thread was to acknowledge the decades that Billy Foster has been part of the game and congratulate him in some small way for what I am sure was a very rewarding and gratifying experience for him.

I make no claim that any caddie wins a tournament for a professional golfer. On the other hand, there is little doubt in my mind that some caddies are better than others and some do contribute to a golfer's performance in some small way.

It would certainly be interesting to hear what golfers who have won majors have to say on the subject.

DT 


SL_Solow

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2022, 01:36:43 PM »
Whether a caddy contributes to a tournament win depends on the caddy and player.  Justin Thomas and Matt Fitzpatrick seem to value their caddies.  The price paid for services suggests hat there is value added.


But on a more basic level, caddies are a wonderful way to introduce youth to the game.  In Chicago, the birthplace of the Evans Scholar Foundation, young men and women earn a significant amount of money during their summer breaks.  They are exposed to the game and the lucky (and talented) ones can even earn a full ride to college.  Others benefit from other scholarships.  We work hard to keep caddy programs alive.  Playing with a caddy is a real pleasure and encourages walking. Golf is much more than the professional game.


   

John Kavanaugh

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2022, 01:45:12 PM »
David,


I meant no harm. Being a Grip on an Oscar wining picture must be very satisfying and even career defining.


My apologies.

Ira Fishman

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2022, 01:48:07 PM »
Whether a caddy contributes to a tournament win depends on the caddy and player.  Justin Thomas and Matt Fitzpatrick seem to value their caddies.  The price paid for services suggests hat there is value added.


But on a more basic level, caddies are a wonderful way to introduce youth to the game.  In Chicago, the birthplace of the Evans Scholar Foundation, young men and women earn a significant amount of money during their summer breaks.  They are exposed to the game and the lucky (and talented) ones can even earn a full ride to college.  Others benefit from other scholarships.  We work hard to keep caddy programs alive.  Playing with a caddy is a real pleasure and encourages walking. Golf is much more than the professional game.


   


Hogan, Nelson, Snead, Hagan, Sarazen, Casper, and Evans himself. Pretty good list of caddies.

John Mayhugh

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2022, 01:49:04 PM »
David's original post said that Foster "wins his first major as a caddie." That's the comment that I responded to. Of course caddies have value and the amount of value depends on the player needs and relationship. I'm not diminishing that. I just don't think that caddies should get recognized as winning a tournament if they aren't the one playing - especially on a website devoted (at times) to the discussion of Golf Course Architecture.


David_Tepper

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2022, 02:08:17 PM »
John H. -

Just a guess on my part, but it would not surprise me at all that, among his fellow tour caddies, more than one of them said or thought "nice to see Billy win his first major."

It's a matter of perspective. ;)

DT

Steve Sayre

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2022, 02:18:26 PM »
I'm kind of stunned by a few of the opinions on this thread. Really?


  • Part of the game since the early 19th century.
  • An honest and healthy way to make a living, get through college, etc.
  • Enable a certain demographic to keep walking when they can't or don't choose to lug the bag any longer.
  • A pipeline into the game.
  • Collaborating with players lousy and legendary with apparently positive results or they would have all disappeared by now.
  • Explicitly and profusely thanked by most of your favorite Pro golfers when they win because they added value.
  • Add personality and interest to the tours what, no Fluff, Bones, Carl Jackson, Tony Navarro, Herman Mitchell, Tip Anderson, Joe Lacava, Angelo, Fanny, Squeeky, Bruce Edwards, Andy Martinez, and yes, Steve Williams among many many others.  They have added a lot of enjoyment to watching the game, at least for me.


+1 for Evans Scholars, add Ouimet Fund and I am sure a score of regional/local programs.


No Eddie Lowery?


I think caddies add a lot to the game, whether they are on your bag or Matt Fitzpatrick's --- or even if you're just a spectator.














Kalen Braley

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2022, 02:24:32 PM »
I think a more interesting question is, outside of Tiger Woods...

Which player would have still won a major in the modern era without a caddie?   Carrying the bag for 72 holes, up and down often very hill golf courses, getting all your own yardages, raking your bunkers, keeping grips dry in the rain,  having one to bounce ideas and confirm judgments with, having an ally, helping you with a read on the green, etc...the list goes on and on

So while a caddy doesn't win PGA Tournaments, the chances of winning on Tour without one is basically nil, (unless no one has one..)

P.S.  I suppose coaches in other sports like Basketball, Baseball, Football, etc that actively advise during a game are also equally worthless?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2022, 02:39:45 PM »
I think a more interesting question is, outside of Tiger Woods...

Which player would have still won a major in the modern era without a caddie?   Carrying the bag for 72 holes, up and down often very hill golf courses, getting all your own yardages, raking your bunkers, keeping grips dry in the rain,  having one to bounce ideas and confirm judgments with, having an ally, helping you with a read on the green, etc...the list goes on and on

So while a caddy doesn't win PGA Tournaments, the chances of winning on Tour without one is basically nil, (unless no one has one..)

P.S.  I suppose coaches in other sports like Basketball, Baseball, Football, etc that actively advise during a game are also equally worthless?


If what your say is true wouldn't it be in the interest of architecture to fire all the caddies on tour. At an average increase of 5 shots per tournament there is no more need for high rough or way back tees. Are caddies the reason our great courses are becoming obsolete?

Kalen Braley

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2022, 03:51:51 PM »
I think a more interesting question is, outside of Tiger Woods...

Which player would have still won a major in the modern era without a caddie?   Carrying the bag for 72 holes, up and down often very hill golf courses, getting all your own yardages, raking your bunkers, keeping grips dry in the rain,  having one to bounce ideas and confirm judgments with, having an ally, helping you with a read on the green, etc...the list goes on and on

So while a caddy doesn't win PGA Tournaments, the chances of winning on Tour without one is basically nil, (unless no one has one..)

P.S.  I suppose coaches in other sports like Basketball, Baseball, Football, etc that actively advise during a game are also equally worthless?


If what your say is true wouldn't it be in the interest of architecture to fire all the caddies on tour. At an average increase of 5 shots per tournament there is no more need for high rough or way back tees. Are caddies the reason our great courses are becoming obsolete?


The reason courses are becoming obsolete are mostly due to the ball, not the caddies.

Without caddies, average time to complete a round would no doubt increase with all the extra duties the player would incur, and I don't think anyone wants that.

And sure, between extra exertion over the course of a round, and lack of caddie advice, I suspect winning scores would in fact increase!

P.S.  For that matter, maybe we could "fix" bomb and gouge, by also banning fore-caddies and spectators, so players would incur more lost ball penalties and have extra incentive to hit it shorter and straighter. Imagine watching all those glorious walks of shame! ;D

John Kavanaugh

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2022, 04:12:25 PM »
Talent would adapt and it would be same scores, different winners. Caddies are a tradition that I would hate to see go away.

John Mayhugh

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2022, 04:23:56 PM »
P.S.  I suppose coaches in other sports like Basketball, Baseball, Football, etc that actively advise during a game are also equally worthless?
This is a odd analogy to use.

Coaches in team sports have much more responsibility for the outcome of a game than a caddie does. Those coaches are making decisions that the players are tasked with implementing. While professional sports are a bit different in terms of indirect power that highly paid players possess, coaches are generally in charge of what happens. They aren't simply "actively advising."

Surely you understand the difference?

Mark Chaplin

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2022, 05:49:26 PM »

Do tell what caddies bring to the game.



In 2018 I caddied for a chap in the U.K. final of the BMW International at the Castle Course, St Andrews. I was surprised only around half of the field had a caddie.


My guy had a reasonable front nine, then a wobble, after three putting the 12th the player said hed had enough and was giving up on the score card. I persuaded him to keep plugging away and enjoy the round, he kept going and finished with three straight par net birdies and walked off with 33 points. A decent effort for a guy whod given up on his round.


As we were greenkeeping at St Andrews that year I was up at 4.30am and found a text on my phone sent after midnight. My guy had won on count back and was going to the world final in Mexico. The prize included his wife, business class flights, 7 days in a 5* hotel, practice rounds, tournament and a high end entertainment package for non golfing partners. Basically a 10-15,000 package.


The golfer finished 3rd in the world final. Not bad for 80 and a round hed mentally given up on. He messaged to say without me he wouldnt have been off to Mexico.
Cave Nil Vino

David_Tepper

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2022, 06:46:22 PM »
From the NY Post:

https://nypost.com/2022/06/19/us-open-matt-fitzpatrick-delivers-caddie-unbelievable-first-major/

"And yet the first-time major winner almost seemed more taken by his caddies breakthrough.  It means the world to Billy, Fitzpatrick said. I cant tell you how much it means to Billy. Its unbelievable. I know its something hes wanted for a long, long, long time. To do it today is incredible. '

John Kavanaugh

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Re: OT - Congrats to Billy Foster!
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2022, 07:00:06 PM »

Do tell what caddies bring to the game.



In 2018 I caddied for a chap in the U.K. final of the BMW International at the Castle Course, St Andrews. I was surprised only around half of the field had a caddie.


My guy had a reasonable front nine, then a wobble, after three putting the 12th the player said hed had enough and was giving up on the score card. I persuaded him to keep plugging away and enjoy the round, he kept going and finished with three straight par net birdies and walked off with 33 points. A decent effort for a guy whod given up on his round.


As we were greenkeeping at St Andrews that year I was up at 4.30am and found a text on my phone sent after midnight. My guy had won on count back and was going to the world final in Mexico. The prize included his wife, business class flights, 7 days in a 5* hotel, practice rounds, tournament and a high end entertainment package for non golfing partners. Basically a 10-15,000 package.


The golfer finished 3rd in the world final. Not bad for 80 and a round hed mentally given up on. He messaged to say without me he wouldnt have been off to Mexico.


Great story. What was his handicap? He needed 3 straight pars to make the world final and he was going to quit. How did he survive breakfast without a butler?

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