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Tommy Williamsen

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Slumps
« on: June 17, 2022, 10:49:50 AM »
Looking at Rickie Fowler this week hoping to get into the Open when someone withdraws makes me sad. There is no accounting for slumps. Some guys, like Spieth, can come out of them. Some guys like Duval and Baker Finch never do. I was in a two year slump. Don't know why I had it or how I got out of it. They are a mystery.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2022, 10:53:16 AM »
Looking at Rickie Fowler this week hoping to get into the Open when someone withdraws makes me sad. There is no accounting for slumps. Some guys, like Spieth, can come out of them. Some guys like Duval and Baker Finch never do. I was in a two year slump. Don't know why I had it or how I got out of it. They are a mystery.
Who is to say it is a slump, and not just a slightly longer than normal hot streak? Is Brooks in a slump, or did he simply get hot for 16 months?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2022, 11:23:42 AM »
Architects worry about soil slumps, usually a combo of excess rain, steep banks, and loose soil particles.   :D


I have had a few spectacular holes eliminated from consideration after reading a Geotech report advising against putting a golf hole on the very edge of a high ridge, due to potential slumping.  That is always disappointing......


Just to bring it back to architecture........LOL
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2022, 11:27:03 AM »

Just to bring it back to architecture........LOL


Along the same line of bringing it back to architecture. I live on a course that is pretty user friendly. I could still score decently on it, yet it didn't make a difference to me because I still didn't hit the ball as well as I was used to.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2022, 11:33:18 AM »
Having seen Rickie's swing as a kid, and having worked with top players who had interesting ideosyncrasies, it probably was a bad choice to change his back swing to downswing part of his swing.  Though Butch tightened up his swing, he had the wisdom to not mess with the transition.  Unfortunately, he was sold a bill of goods by another instructor who failed to recognize that transition as an integral part of his swing's success.  This is a slump, but if he has the fortitude, he will emerge a stronger player.  Hopefully, he will seek an instructor like Jeff Warne, Jim Suttie, and Jim McLean who are very adept at helping great players with interesting swing components.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2022, 11:38:29 AM »
Tommy,


I think there is some psychology to slumps on particular golf courses.  I recall a hole on the course my HS golf team played, with a real narrow chute for the tee shot.  Somehow, I got it through the first time I played, and never had trouble with that hole.  Others could never hit that narrow fw.


There is also the old horses for courses saying which could mean it would be a bad time to slump break if you are playing a course that doesn't fit your game.  If your game is such that no course fits it.....hmm.


Other than that, yes slumps are a mystery.  I will say that of all the pros I know, they could tell you if they were going to be top 5 that week based on their practice and prep, and somewhat based on how well they felt they could play a certain course.  By contrast, I am sure they know the weeks they have no chance to win.


As to long term, I recall playing a grand opening with a well known DFW area pro from the last generation.  He was in the midst of a very long and well publicized slump, and even shanked about half the shots he made in our little 9 hole exhibition.  At some point, it must be all between the ears, methinks.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rob Marshall

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2022, 12:40:19 PM »
Having seen Rickie's swing as a kid, and having worked with top players who had interesting ideosyncrasies, it probably was a bad choice to change his back swing to downswing part of his swing.  Though Butch tightened up his swing, he had the wisdom to not mess with the transition.  Unfortunately, he was sold a bill of goods by another instructor who failed to recognize that transition as an integral part of his swing's success.  This is a slump, but if he has the fortitude, he will emerge a stronger player.  Hopefully, he will seek an instructor like Jeff Warne, Jim Suttie, and Jim McLean who are very adept at helping great players with interesting swing components.


When you have been a student of the game for almost 50 years you learn that when certain people speak you have to listen. Just a wealth of information. You hit the nail on the head with those three.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Steve Lang

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2022, 01:12:35 AM »

Just to bring it back to architecture........LOL


Along the same line of bringing it back to architecture. I live on a course that is pretty user friendly. I could still score decently on it, yet it didn't make a difference to me because I still didn't hit the ball as well as I was used to.




So its your angle of repose at play to define a slump in soil or play,,, its always relative to one's expectations, on a sliding scale of happy
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Thomas Dai

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2022, 04:46:07 AM »
Look up Ralph Guldahl. No TV booth to transfer to back then.
atb

Bruce Katona

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2022, 10:03:57 AM »
I was thinking about slump in poured concrete Jeff Brauer, not soil.

DFarron

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2022, 12:59:47 PM »
It’s super interesting that a lot of these your stars like to dump great teachers like Butch because he’s not “hip” and they jump to one of the new cool kid teachers and fall into the abyss.


Meanwhile players like Harold Varner and Danielle Kang are vastly improved and players like Rory, Webb Simpson are sneaking in under the radar to take lessons from Butch.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2022, 01:08:07 PM »
Looking at Rickie Fowler this week hoping to get into the Open when someone withdraws makes me sad. There is no accounting for slumps. Some guys, like Spieth, can come out of them. Some guys like Duval and Baker Finch never do. I was in a two year slump. Don't know why I had it or how I got out of it. They are a mystery.
Who is to say it is a slump, and not just a slightly longer than normal hot streak? Is Brooks in a slump, or did he simply get hot for 16 months?
During Brooks' "slump" he has had a T2 in the PGA a T4 in the US Open and a T6 in the Open Championship - those are all in 2021.  That's a slump?

mike_beene

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2022, 12:00:53 AM »
Morikowa is a good example: he can’t figure out how to hit is preferred cut and is looking at old swings .Pretty impressive he made the cut.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2022, 07:58:41 AM »
During Brooks' "slump" he has had a T2 in the PGA a T4 in the US Open and a T6 in the Open Championship - those are all in 2021.  That's a slump?
I didn't say he was in a slump - I asked the question and said that he may have just had a hot streak. Is Jordan in a slump, or did he just play way above his level and "get hot" for awhile (admittedly he's probably in my second bullet point below)?

Kinda depends on how you define "slump." IMO, to have a "slump," one of two things needs to happen:
  • You need to be really good, have some low times, and then return to being really good again. Otherwise, maybe you just "got hot" for awhile. Sustained peak, valley, sustained peak where we see the valley as the "slump."
  • You need to be really good for a loooong time, then play poorly. And it can't just be because you're old, otherwise it's not a slump, it's just that you're old.
You see it all the time in other sports. A lifetime .297 hitter over 11 seasons goes 12-for-June one year. Clearly a slump. Meanwhile, a player comes up from AAA and hits .327 the first four months… before falling back down to the .266 hitter he is because pitchers get the book on him. Not a slump.

The "sophomore slump" is only ever a slump if the player comes out of it. Otherwise, it's just what type of ball player they are.

Players get hot from time to time. I don't think it's always a "slump" when they kinda return to their more normal level.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 08:08:14 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2022, 08:25:36 AM »
I understand the swing issue with the tour players but putting stats are also quite interesting: Total putting ranks of interest: Dustin Johnson 192, Colin Morikawa 163, Ricky Fowler 155, Jordan Spieth 143.  It does seem that too often players attribute a slump to their swing while it is quite hard to score well when your putting is bad.

Rick Sides

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2022, 08:31:33 AM »
I think being a professional athlete can be mentally draining at times and so much of success is based between the ears . When I think of slump, mental block , I can help but think of second baseman  chuck knoblauch not being able to throw to first base

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2022, 08:38:01 AM »
I think being a professional athlete can be mentally draining at times and so much of success is based between the ears . When I think of slump, mental block , I can help but think of second baseman  chuck knoblauch not being able to throw to first base
That's not a slump, that's the yips. Steve Blass Syndrome/Disease.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2022, 09:28:20 AM »
Funny thing about golf. When I got on a hot streak, like Erik is suggesting, I thought that I got it figured out and wouldn't play poorly ever again. When I was in my two year slump I thought I'd never play well again because I got old.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Cal Carlisle

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2022, 09:37:30 AM »
Maybe he just hit his peak.

Steve Lang

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2022, 11:17:47 AM »
I think being a professional athlete can be mentally draining at times and so much of success is based between the ears . When I think of slump, mental block , I can help but think of second baseman  chuck knoblauch not being able to throw to first base


I played first base for a handful of years in grade school/jr high little league and had one 2nd baseman that could easily turn the 6-4-3, but could not, for his life, throw with any authority to me at 1st, after fielding a simple ground ball, it was always a wildcard how he'd toss it, high low, right, left in that 20-30 ft...  so I always can relate to that 6 inch space between the ears issue... pro or am


 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2022, 12:37:23 PM »
Even the great ones have slumps, how could Rory have not won a major since 2014, seems impossible, hope he wins today, go Rory!!!!!!!!
Lived Chicago, now Jupiter, Fl, was a 4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 3 back, wrist, shoulder surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, I don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms

David_Tepper

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2022, 12:46:21 PM »
What ever happened to Hunter Mahan?

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2022, 10:24:50 PM »

David_Tepper

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2022, 10:41:00 PM »
Wayne -

Yes, I did miss that one. CPG is not in my regular viewing rotation. :)

DT
 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Slumps
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2022, 10:47:44 AM »
I was thinking about a slump in poured concrete Jeff Brauer, not soil.


Well, that is important, too.  My personal take is that golf course construction doesn't test concrete nearly as intensively as they do in building construction.  Of course cart paths can only crack, but they can't fall down, LOL.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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