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Mike Sweeney

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2022, 08:18:17 PM »

When I was a pastor in Baltimore I often visited the local psychiatric hospital. Even into the 80’s patients were regularly given medication to keep them “manageable.”


"Manageable" to who? Jesus Christ?
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

Terry Lavin

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2022, 08:20:52 PM »
Ouimet won the 1931 US Amateur at Beverly. Bobby Jones handed him the trophy. They looked different. Jones had already done it. Ouimet was chasing his idol. They both looked prosperous.


The game has prospered too.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2022, 09:20:19 PM »

When I was a pastor in Baltimore I often visited the local psychiatric hospital. Even into the 80’s patients were regularly given medication to keep them “manageable.”


"Manageable" to who? Jesus Christ?


I was using the same term that Mike used if you reread my post.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

MCirba

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2022, 09:16:47 AM »
I'm not a psychiatrist and my wording is clearly imprecise. 


Please...no offense intended and I apologize for sounding insensitive.


I will check with John but if memory serves McDermott suffered from a malady that is somewhat routinely treated on an outpatient basis with medication these days.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2022, 11:02:01 AM »
I'm not a psychiatrist and my wording is clearly imprecise. 

Please...no offense intended and I apologize for sounding insensitive.

I will check with John but if memory serves McDermott suffered from a malady that is somewhat routinely treated on an outpatient basis with medication these days.

From this Links magazine article:

https://www.linksmagazine.com/characters_john_mcdermott/

It says this:

The diagnosis was schizophrenia with paranoiac tendencies
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:
https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2022, 12:00:55 PM »
Thank you so much Joe.


 Clearly I should stick to architecture.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2022, 12:09:26 PM »
Barney,

Of all the mainstream sports, you can't tell me you didn't know golf is easily the most tone deaf to wealth and affluence. 



What does this even mean?

Jim Sherma

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2022, 12:47:46 PM »
In 1913 golf circles someone that needed to caddy as a youth and have a wage job as a young adult would have been seen as poor relative to the crowd that defined the proper golf of the USGA clubs.


When compared to those that use summering as a verb he was poor. Relative to todays middle/upper-middle classes poor would be an improper term.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2022, 02:01:17 PM »
Barney,

Of all the mainstream sports, you can't tell me you didn't know golf is easily the most tone deaf to wealth and affluence. 


What does this even mean?


Unlike other sports where many players were legitimately poor growing up and rose to the ranks of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc...how often does this occur in Golf?  Outside of Tony Finau, who grew up in a lower-end middle class neighborhood of SLC, how many guys on Tour didn't have regular access to a club/course, range and practice area, regular lessons, top notch equipment, ability to travel to play events, etc.

Golf was nearly exclusive to only the affluent for most of its history, so much so that golf's governing body took pity on second class "public links" players by hosting a national championship just for them for nearly a century.  And while stigma like this have certainly improved significantly, there is no doubt a lot elitism that remains in the game which I've experienced first hand in various ways.

So its not surprising to see tone deafness where some may claim a middle class golfer who doesn't belong to a club is "poor".  I have several friends who are millionaires and still chose to play at the local muni because they refuse to join the proverbial...or literal... club.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2022, 03:35:16 PM »
Barney,

Of all the mainstream sports, you can't tell me you didn't know golf is easily the most tone deaf to wealth and affluence. 


What does this even mean?


Unlike other sports where many players were legitimately poor growing up and rose to the ranks of the NFL, NBA, MLB, etc...how often does this occur in Golf?  Outside of Tony Finau, who grew up in a lower-end middle class neighborhood of SLC, how many guys on Tour didn't have regular access to a club/course, range and practice area, regular lessons, top notch equipment, ability to travel to play events, etc.

Golf was nearly exclusive to only the affluent for most of its history, so much so that golf's governing body took pity on second class "public links" players by hosting a national championship just for them for nearly a century.  And while stigma like this have certainly improved significantly, there is no doubt a lot elitism that remains in the game which I've experienced first hand in various ways.

So its not surprising to see tone deafness where some may claim a middle class golfer who doesn't belong to a club is "poor".  I have several friends who are millionaires and still chose to play at the local muni because they refuse to join the proverbial...or literal... club.


I still don't get the point. Golf is expensive and always has been? Yep. You've experienced "elitism" ... I would love to hear specific examples of that.

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2022, 04:56:08 PM »
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.

One thing that I didn't realize until I read about Ouimet's loss of amateur status was that anyone who caddied for money after the age of 16 would also lose their am status.  That's crazy. 

Maybe that explains why the caddies were all so young in the old pics. 

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2022, 05:40:29 PM »

I still don't get the point. Golf is expensive and always has been? Yep. You've experienced "elitism" ... I would love to hear specific examples of that.


The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.


I live in Manhattan and payed $36 to play golf today on Long Island.


I practice more than I play at Spook Rock GC north of Manhattan during the week. The place is filled with kids during the summer. The Pro has placed a bunch of college golfers over the years.


This is a silly conversation. If you have talent, they will find you!! I did not have talent so...

"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2022, 06:15:17 PM »

I still don't get the point. Golf is expensive and always has been? Yep. You've experienced "elitism" ... I would love to hear specific examples of that.


The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.


I live in Manhattan and payed $36 to play golf today on Long Island.


I practice more than I play at Spook Rock GC north of Manhattan during the week. The place is filled with kids during the summer. The Pro has placed a bunch of college golfers over the years.


This is a silly conversation. If you have talent, they will find you!! I did not have talent so...


Love this.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2022, 06:25:38 PM »

Love this.


For the record, the course was "ranked" #12 in the world at one point!!


https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/tom-macwood-the-worlds-finest-courses/


And yes, $32 + $4 reservation fee :)


http://timberpointgolfcourse.com/-golf-fees
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

Mike Wagner

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Joe_Tucholski

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2022, 04:48:18 PM »

The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.



I often say the military is the best social welfare program we have in the US.  Providing guidance and opportunity for some who have no real path to succeed.  That being said growing up the son of a retired officer who worked for a defense contractor really isn't someone who is poor or disadvantaged.


Not to diminish Tiger as he has talked about playing in junior tournaments where he wasn't able to use locker room facilities that his competitors used.  He talks about his feelings coming up in the golf establishment at age 14.
Tiger Woods On Racism: Unedited RARE 1990 Interview - YouTube

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2022, 05:09:33 PM »
You can work, inherit, lotto or scam your way out of being poor. Not the same.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2022, 05:32:21 PM »

The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.



I often say the military is the best social welfare program we have in the US.  Providing guidance and opportunity for some who have no real path to succeed.  That being said growing up the son of a retired officer who worked for a defense contractor really isn't someone who is poor or disadvantaged.


Not to diminish Tiger as he has talked about playing in junior tournaments where he wasn't able to use locker room facilities that his competitors used.  He talks about his feelings coming up in the golf establishment at age 14.
Tiger Woods On Racism: Unedited RARE 1990 Interview - YouTube


Not to hijack the post, but I couldn’t agree more. More and more middle class (which Ouimet most assuredly would be if he lived in 2022) kids graduate institutions of higher learning and can’t break into the job market in their chosen fields. Then I see how successful the military is at providing solid pay, good benefits, and great training for young officers and I wonder why more don’t make that leap.


I learned to play golf on a military golf course. There was no issue of not being gilded there. Except for the retirees getting early access to tee times, it was pretty damn democratic.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2022, 07:01:01 PM »

The greatest golfer in the history of golf grew up on a Military course.



I often say the military is the best social welfare program we have in the US.  Providing guidance and opportunity for some who have no real path to succeed.  That being said growing up the son of a retired officer who worked for a defense contractor really isn't someone who is poor or disadvantaged.


Not to diminish Tiger as he has talked about playing in junior tournaments where he wasn't able to use locker room facilities that his competitors used.  He talks about his feelings coming up in the golf establishment at age 14.
Tiger Woods On Racism: Unedited RARE 1990 Interview - YouTube


Not to hijack the post, but I couldn’t agree more. More and more middle class (which Ouimet most assuredly would be if he lived in 2022) kids graduate institutions of higher learning and can’t break into the job market in their chosen fields. Then I see how successful the military is at providing solid pay, good benefits, and great training for young officers and I wonder why more don’t make that leap.


I learned to play golf on a military golf course. There was no issue of not being gilded there. Except for the retirees getting early access to tee times, it was pretty damn democratic.


I grew up on military courses as well, five of them. I made a friendship of one of the pros who became like a second father to me. I played golf with him until he died. I played with bunches of other kids and even worked on the ground’s crew on one of them.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2022, 08:24:38 PM »
The worst golfer I ever met grew up at Scott Air Force base outside of St Louis. No one cares.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2022, 12:18:36 AM »
The worst golfer I ever met grew up at Scott Air Force base outside of St Louis. No one cares.


I’m starting to think you meant “pleasing” instead of “offensive” in your OP.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 12:20:09 AM by Ben Sims »

Sean_A

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2022, 02:06:55 AM »
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.

One thing that I didn't realize until I read about Ouimet's loss of amateur status was that anyone who caddied for money after the age of 16 would also lose their am status.  That's crazy. 

Maybe that explains why the caddies were all so young in the old pics.

That was about controlling access. Very much in the same way country clubs controlled membership access. In some ways this golden age of golf wasn't very golden.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South & Crystal Downs

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2022, 11:39:33 AM »
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.

One thing that I didn't realize until I read about Ouimet's loss of amateur status was that anyone who caddied for money after the age of 16 would also lose their am status.  That's crazy. 

Maybe that explains why the caddies were all so young in the old pics.

That was about controlling access. Very much in the same way country clubs controlled membership access. In some ways this golden age of golf wasn't very golden.

Ciao


All of this.

As for the miltary? There's an inherent trust in the government to establish policy lacking that makes being in the military appealing.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2022, 12:18:00 PM »
The worst golfer I ever met grew up at Scott Air Force base outside of St Louis. No one cares.


I’m starting to think you meant “pleasing” instead of “offensive” in your OP.


Relax. He’s a two time Major champion dear friend of mine.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2022, 02:32:56 PM »
My friend and I played Royal Liverpool about 7 years ago.  After we were finished, the caddies asked us if we would like to go upstairs and have a drink and play snookers.  I mention that I thought that was for members only and the caddies tell us not to worry, they are members.


A lot of caddies are members. Almost all, if not all of the caddies at Dornoch are members.  I played Nairn with a couple of older members who caddied in the summer to supplement their retirement incomes.
One of the caddies at Cabot Links is (not sure if he is still there) John Wedge who is the retired chief of surgery at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto and a member of Rosedale Golf Club, the hoity-toitiest club in Canada.  https://fairwaysgolf.ca/2016/10/24/john-wedge-how-i-spent-my-summer-vacation/

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