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John Kavanaugh

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It all looks so idyllic. Beautiful home and loving family. Was 1913 a utopian society where working in a sporting goods store is considered child labor?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Ouimet

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2022, 06:00:53 PM »
Sounds like this is a "you issue".  ;D


The David v. Goliath story works better when it is also painted as a class contrast.
Harry Vardon may have been poorer.


They all faired well in the end, especially Eddy!


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2022, 06:14:11 PM »
Watched the featured group feed today and the announcer choked on saying “Country Club” like it was the dirty word it is. Coupled with the beautiful drone shots of my dream home it made me wonder if subversive tactics were at hand solidifying the concept that American golf is as elitist as it was in 1913.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 06:16:59 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2022, 06:25:09 PM »
John,


1) Harvard Football was retroactively declared "National Champions" for their 1913 season - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1913_Harvard_Crimson_football_team


2) Boston College moved from South Boston (Jesuit run, Irish neighborhood) to bucolic Chestnut Hill and Brookline in 1913 - https://www.britannica.com/topic/Boston-College


Lots of class movement and sporting opposites in 1913 in Boston.


Not arguing, actually agreeing with your observations. Ouimet was from a "mixed race" family too!! French Canadien Father + Irish (born in) Mother. Please define "poor"? Poor in money does not equal poor in spirit:


« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 05:53:26 AM by Mike Sweeney »
"We need to allow people to make decisions for themselves and their local communities and families. Trying to tie everything into one package simply does not work." 5/11/21

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2022, 09:43:30 PM »
French Canadian mother and Irish Father sounds like genetic heaven. Just ask my kids.

Joe_Tucholski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2022, 04:44:21 AM »
The David v. Goliath story works better when it is also painted as a class contrast.
Harry Vardon may have been poorer.


They all faired well in the end, especially Eddy!


The media writes a narrative that will get attention, even in that era.  The fact that they all faired well in the end shows he wasn't poor.


I do think golf in the US has a larger divide in class/wealth than in the UK/Ireland...it's just not official like it was previously in the UK (Lords/Commons).  I'm on a NI/Ireland trip now and have randomly been paired with a billionaire golf developer and a grocery store worker.  That being said I also played the Valley at Portrush and it's pretty clear they still have a bit of a class system in play...but I'd take playing on the Valley course every day.


Our ability to play a leisure game/sport like golf shows we're doing pretty good in life.

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2022, 08:29:30 AM »
The David v. Goliath story works better when it is also painted as a class contrast.
Harry Vardon may have been poorer.


They all faired well in the end, especially Eddy!


The media writes a narrative that will get attention, even in that era.  The fact that they all faired well in the end shows he wasn't poor.


I do think golf in the US has a larger divide in class/wealth than in the UK/Ireland...it's just not official like it was previously in the UK (Lords/Commons).  I'm on a NI/Ireland trip now and have randomly been paired with a billionaire golf developer and a grocery store worker.  That being said I also played the Valley at Portrush and it's pretty clear they still have a bit of a class system in play...but I'd take playing on the Valley course every day.


Our ability to play a leisure game/sport like golf shows we're doing pretty good in life.


I too could play the Valley course every day. I played it before they lost a couple of holes to the Dunluce
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2022, 08:33:27 AM »
My friend and I played Royal Liverpool about 7 years ago.  After we were finished, the caddies asked us if we would like to go upstairs and have a drink and play snookers.  I mention that I thought that was for members only and the caddies tell us not to worry, they are members.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2022, 08:39:25 AM »
His family "owned" a house-FULL STOP




which happened to be across the street from one of the top clubs in the country, in one of the more affluent cities in the country.
Poor people don't "OWN" houses.


Working class sure.And sure money was tight, but poor?
No
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 11:54:50 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2022, 10:49:40 AM »
Barney,

Of all the mainstream sports, you can't tell me you didn't know golf is easily the most tone deaf to wealth and affluence.  Hell the USGA even made its own amateur championship series for second class non-private club players...

P.S.  I'll bet the LIV guys are secretly snickering at how "poor" most of thier ex-PGATour mates are..


MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2022, 12:31:52 PM »
All you need to know about class, wealth, and privilege in the United States in 1913 is that an American had already won the US Open prior to Ouimet...two years in a row, in fact, but a former caddie who turned...horror of horrors...into a golf professional didn't resonate as a great American success story in a society where such laborers were seen as a necessary evil not befitting proper society.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 12:40:16 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2022, 01:10:44 PM »
All you need to know about class, wealth, and privilege in the United States in 1913 is that an American had already won the US Open prior to Ouimet...two years in a row, in fact, but a former caddie who turned...horror of horrors...into a golf professional didn't resonate as a great American success story in a society where such laborers were seen as a necessary evil not befitting proper society.


He was a life long Amateur.
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2022, 02:01:20 PM »
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.


I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.


"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2022, 02:35:15 PM »
Rob Marshall,


Yes, Francis Ouimet was a lifelong amateur except for the period from 1916 until after WWI when the USGA stripped him of his amateur status because he was viewed as capitalizing on his golf notoriety to enhance the success of his sporting goods store.


I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.


Got it
"I used to get pissed at blowing leads until I quit having them" John Kavanaugh

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2022, 03:04:07 PM »
My friend and I played Royal Liverpool about 7 years ago.  After we were finished, the caddies asked us if we would like to go upstairs and have a drink and play snookers.  I mention that I thought that was for members only and the caddies tell us not to worry, they are members.


A lot of caddies are members. Almost all, if not all of the caddies at Dornoch are members.  I played Nairn with a couple of older members who caddied in the summer to supplement their retirement incomes.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2022, 04:14:32 PM »

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.


This John J McDermott. He won the US Open at age 19, the second youngest person to ever win a major. I have a soft spot in my heart for him. He lost a playoff for the Open in 1910. I guess he was very brash and didn't win many friends. In 1913 he won the Shawnee Open, in which Vardon and Ray played. Evidently he told them in no uncertain terms that they should go home because they had no chance to win the Open at TCC. He went on to finish 8th in 1913. A year later he had some kind of breakdown and spent the next 60 years in and out of mental hospitals. There is speculation that some of his  outbursts might have been early manifestations of his illness. His is a sad story and is one of the ultimate "might have been" stories.


In 1971 his sisters brought him to Merion where he watched Trevino win. Palmer recognized him and befriended him when he was asked to leave the pro shop. a few weeks later he was dead.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 04:33:13 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2022, 04:20:53 PM »
Tommy,


My friend John Burnes did extensive research on McDermott and was able to get the state of Pennsylvania to erect a historical marker in his honor near the old site of Aronimink where he caddied.


I'm hopeful there's a book at some point.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2022, 04:32:38 PM »
Tommy,


My friend John Burnes did extensive research on McDermott and was able to get the state of Pennsylvania to erect a historical marker in his honor near the old site of Aronimink where he caddied.


I'm hopeful there's a book at some point.


Good for Mr. Burns. I hope there is a book as well. I’d like to know more about him. The early part of the 20th century was not a good time to have some kind of mental/emotional problem.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

PPallotta

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2022, 04:47:36 PM »
Tommy,
My friend John Burnes did extensive research on McDermott and was able to get the state of Pennsylvania to erect a historical marker in his honor near the old site of Aronimink where he caddied.
I'm hopeful there's a book at some point.
Good for Mr. Burns. I hope there is a book as well. I’d like to know more about him. The early part of the 20th century was not a good time to have some kind of mental/emotional problem.
Yes, indeed, on both counts.
If I'm not mistaken, a year after Quimet's win another -- but very different -- working class professional won the US Open, Walter Hagen. God bless him, the grit and verve and moxie that he brought as an early pro to those then-genteel amateur environments. He drank, he smoked, he caroused and he lived large -- then and now perhaps at least some kind of bulwark against the stresses and strains that can so ravage our often fragile psyches.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2022, 04:53:16 PM »
Tommy,


My friend John Burnes did extensive research on McDermott and was able to get the state of Pennsylvania to erect a historical marker in his honor near the old site of Aronimink where he caddied.


I'm hopeful there's a book at some point.


Good for Mr. Burns. I hope there is a book as well. I’d like to know more about him. The early part of the 20th century was not a good time to have some kind of mental/emotional problem.


Which is exactly why I am lucky to be living now.

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2022, 06:59:07 PM »

I wasn't referring to Ouimet, however.   I was referring to the other American who won back-to-back US Opens in 1911 & 1912 prior to Ouimet's storied victory in 1913.


This John J McDermott. He won the US Open at age 19, the second youngest person to ever win a major. I have a soft spot in my heart for him. He lost a playoff for the Open in 1910. I guess he was very brash and didn't win many friends. In 1913 he won the Shawnee Open, in which Vardon and Ray played. Evidently he told them in no uncertain terms that they should go home because they had no chance to win the Open at TCC. He went on to finish 8th in 1913. A year later he had some kind of breakdown and spent the next 60 years in and out of mental hospitals. There is speculation that some of his  outbursts might have been early manifestations of his illness. His is a sad story and is one of the ultimate "might have been" stories.


In 1971 his sisters brought him to Merion where he watched Trevino win. Palmer recognized him and befriended him when he was asked to leave the pro shop. a few weeks later he was dead.


This story about the 1971 US Open is not true.  He was well known by all the golf professionals in Philadelphia, the person this was attached to as having asked him to leave was never an an assistant at Merion and likes to embellish a bit.  I would not doubt he was ignored by others in the event, but it was always a welcome moment in Philadelphia when his sisters brought him around to section events and clubs.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2022, 07:22:13 PM »
As I recall, McDermott suffered from a readily diagnosible and medically manageable condition, had he been around today. Back then, I can't imagine what he went through.


Perhaps John, who sometimes posts here, will weigh in with more specifics.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Why does it feel offensive to paint Ouimet as growing up poor?
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2022, 07:55:45 PM »
As I recall, McDermott suffered from a readily diagnosible and medically manageable condition, had he been around today. Back then, I can't imagine what he went through.


Perhaps John, who sometimes posts here, will weigh in with more specifics.


When I was a pastor in Baltimore I often visited the local psychiatric hospital. Even into the 80’s patients were regularly given medication to keep them “manageable.”
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

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