[Erik J. Barzeski]

Did you ever think about the perspective that maybe more "randomness" [also known as "difficulty"] would be BETTER for the sport?

Randomness is not the same as "difficulty."


Randomness can make golf more difficult, but that doesn't mean it's the same thing or "also known as." Randomness narrows the gap between skill levels, and you seem to agree with your second sentence. Golf will never be a game of no luck/randomness, but I don't think putting is where we should increase it, either.

[Kyle Harris]

I never understood the argument that an equipment rollback would make a certain subset of the competition not as competitive.

There's a universal truth to all golf competition.

Namely, there is a winner.

For each person made "uncompetitive" someone else is made "competitive."

[Kyle Harris]

Sigh...no.

Still yes, and people far smarter than you or I agree. The more randomness you add, the less the role of skill plays a role in the outcome.

Depends on where the randomness is applied.

Random swings are inherently a lack of skill.

Want to eliminate randomness? Eliminate it in your swing and I guarantee you'll be using skill.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Depends on where the randomness is applied.

Random swings are inherently a lack of skill.

Want to eliminate randomness? Eliminate it in your swing and I guarantee you'll be using skill.

That's not how it's being used and I think you know that.

I'd favor the word "consistency" instead of "randomness" when talking about the golf swing. Golfers of all levels are trying to be more "consistent" - nobody says "I want to be less random." More consistent golf swings that produce more consistent results are generally more skilled.

[Ben Hollerbach]

Did you ever think about the perspective that maybe more "randomness" [also known as "difficulty"] would be BETTER for the sport?  It would keep the game harder for the best players while the average guy might not even notice the difference.

An increase in randomness is not applied to players uniquely. But, the distinction made here is the experience of that randomness will be associated differently by players of different skill levels. Those who are skilled enough to consistently hit shots with a clear expected outcome will be able to directly associate the impact of randomness to their scoring. While those players who are not consistent enough to repeatedly hit shots with a clear expected outcome would have a harder time associating their shot outcome with either their execution inconsistencies or an increase in challenge due to randomness. Even if the impact of randomness is greater to their game than the more skilled player.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Hearing that big changes are coming tomorrow.


As I've said…

• I don't think it's needed, but the best argument for it is sustainability, costs, etc. Not what PGA Tour players are doing.
• Any change will likely favor some players over others.
• I'm against bifurcation as it hurts everyone just below "the line" that's drawn. I'm hearing it's for pros only, so… bifurcation.
• If they do change things, I only hope that they understand what the results will be, as it would be silly for them to disrupt golf… only to watch players and equipment manufacturers work around it in a few months.

[Mike_Clayton]

How can you say it would "disrupt golf" when, in the last two decades, we've seen a 60-70 yard increase - over two shots - in how far the ball goes at the top level?
That's the disruption.


Manufacturers are just another lobby group arguing their case - and who couldn't care less about the impact their technology has on the game,
That's fine - but someone needs to put boundaries around them.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

How can you say it would "disrupt golf" when, in the last two decades, we've seen a 60-70 yard increase - over two shots - in how far the ball goes at the top level?

No, we haven't.

2003 Tour Average driving distance: 285.9 yards.
2022-23 Tour Average driving distance: 297.2 yards.

Heck, let's look at 1999… 271.6.

Now, maybe my calculator is broken, or I'm messing up the Australian exchange rate, but 297.2 - 271.6 is far short of 60-70 yards.

[A.G._Crockett]

How can you say it would "disrupt golf" when, in the last two decades, we've seen a 60-70 yard increase - over two shots - in how far the ball goes at the top level?
That's the disruption.


Manufacturers are just another lobby group arguing their case - and who couldn't care less about the impact their technology has on the game,
That's fine - but someone needs to put boundaries around them.

With all due respect, this is incorrect.  The average of the Tour leader in driving distance has increased 45 yds since 1980, which is over 40 years.  The Tour average has changed by slightly less over the same period of time.


This doesn’t mean it’s not an issue (though I don’t think so) but we have NOT seen anything even close to a 60-70 yard increase in the entire time the Tour has kept stats, much less in the last 20 years. In the last 20 years, the leader’ average has gone up 12 yds, and the Tour average by 16 yds.  Not only that, but more than half of the total change in the last 20 years happened in the first few years of that period; things are actually relatively stable now, and have been so for about a decade.

[Garland Bayley]

A. G., and Erik,

Please stop being the site wide leaders in misinformation.

Mike was saying over two shots.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Mike was saying over two shots.

He's still wildly off base, even if he was talking about two tee shots: 12 * 2 or 16 * 2 < 60-70 yards. Heck, going from 1999 and counting two tee shots doesn't even get you much past 50 yards.

I took the "over two shots" to mean how it affected scoring (AG seems to have done the same, perhaps)… but even if you wanted to account for that… players swing faster now, lofts are stronger now, etc. It's not a like-to-like comparison with the ball being the only difference (or even the "ball + oversized, lighter, longer-shafted drivers").

[A.G._Crockett]

The first year of the Byron Nelson Award for the lowest scoring average was 1980, and the winning average in 2022 was less than two shots better than in 1980.


But even that is deceptive; the lowest averages were by Woods over 20 years ago (2000) and again in 2007.


If anyone can post a link to the overall Tour scoring averages year by year, I’d love to see it. I found a lot of stuff but not that.

[Garland Bayley]

2 * 45 = 90

[Erik J. Barzeski]

2 * 45 = 90

Glad your calculator app is working again. Mike said in the last 20 years. The 45 yards is since 1980:

The average of the Tour leader in driving distance has increased 45 yds since 1980, which is over 40 years.

[Garland Bayley]

That's why the smiley face was there.

In 2002 John Daly averaged 306.8 yard drives
Recently Bryson averaged 329.2 yard drives

329.2 - 306.2 = 22.4
The next question is how much have they gained on the second shot since most advanced driver technology has been adapted to the fairway woods?
Another question is how are average drives measured? In the fairway? In the rough? One would think that hitting in the rough would shorten averages, and not be a true reflection of the advances in distance.
Yet another question is how much have agronomic practices effected the results. Faster fairways allow greater gains when hitting the fairway.

Final point. Both of your posts demonstrated failure to read the post you responded to. I.e., misinformation.
Over and out.

[Jerry Kluger]

Did you happen to see what the players were hitting into #18 at the Players? When Fred Funk won he hit driver and had 174 yards for his second shot while Tom Lehman who was certainly much longer than Funk hit a 7 iron from 157 yards. I still don't see what's wrong with the pros or other elite golfers hitting different balls or clubs than all other golfers. It is purely a financial matter to appease the manufacturers.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Final point. Both of your posts demonstrated failure to read the post you responded to. I.e., misinformation.

Uhhhh, no. They didn't.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't know if scoring is a good measure either.

How long was a course now vs 25 years ago?  If the current pros were playing from the 6800 yard tees from then instead of the 7600 yard tees now,  how many fewer strokes would that translate to for the winner or even the last place guy who made the cut? I'm guessing that could easily be 2 shots per round or 8 strokes total..

Apples and Oranges...

[Mike_Clayton]

How can you say it would "disrupt golf" when, in the last two decades, we've seen a 60-70 yard increase - over two shots - in how far the ball goes at the top level?
That's the disruption.


Manufacturers are just another lobby group arguing their case - and who couldn't care less about the impact their technology has on the game,
That's fine - but someone needs to put boundaries around them.

With all due respect, this is incorrect.  The average of the Tour leader in driving distance has increased 45 yds since 1980, which is over 40 years.  The Tour average has changed by slightly less over the same period of time.


This doesn’t mean it’s not an issue (though I don’t think so) but we have NOT seen anything even close to a 60-70 yard increase in the entire time the Tour has kept stats, much less in the last 20 years. In the last 20 years, the leader’ average has gone up 12 yds, and the Tour average by 16 yds.  Not only that, but more than half of the total change in the last 20 years happened in the first few years of that period; things are actually relatively stable now, and have been so for about a decade.

Over 2 shots - and I shouldn't have said "two decades" The ProV was 2000 - so 25 years is more accurate.
Daly was 299 in 1998.Woods 296 No one else was over 290.
1988 3 players were over 280.
270 was somewhere close to the longest driver in 1980.
Rory is now 326 - so that's at least 50 yards longer than 1980. Then add a 3 wood and it'e easily 60-70 yards in total.
600 yards is the new 530.

[Enno Gerdes]

Out of curiosity, because I really don't know the answer: how far would the average pro hit the combination "driver + 8 iron" 20, 30, 40 years ago, and how far do they hit it now?

[Thomas Dai]

I sense a drum roll.
atb

[Bryan Izatt]

From various sources:


Ben Hogan




Jack Nicklaus




Greg Norman




Dustin Johnson

M1 Driver: 312 yards
M1 3-wood: 282 yards
M1 5-wood: 267 yards
2-iron UDI: 261 yards
4-iron: 236 yards
5-iron: 225 yards
6-iron: 212 yards
7-iron: 200 yards
8-iron: 186 yards
9-iron: 172 yards
PW: 158 yards


Although we fixate on driver distance, there have been impressive gains in iron distances amongst the tour players as well.  Min Woo Lee was hitting an iron close to 300 yards off the tee on Sunday.

It seems Mike wasn't too far off with his assertion of two shot total distance difference over 30 or 40 years.

[Bryan Izatt]

I took some comfort in reading the following excerpt from a Nicklaus article from a couple of years ago in the TCPalm.  It seems that our distances and scores are not too far apart now although he's a few years older than me - not that I was ever anywhere near being in his league.  The great ball debate has little bearing in how either of us or any other super-seniors play the game. 


"At first, Nicklaus struggled with not being the stud who was a five-time PGA Player of the Year or whose career led to his induction into the World Golf Hall of Fame in 1974. “I didn’t have much thrill shooting 75,” he said. “Now, I get a thrill breaking 80.”

Nicklaus says his average drive is about 220 yards (he does not believe he can carry the ball 200 yards) and his club head speed is down in recent years from about 96 mph to 82 mph.

The last time he played was Dec. 30. He shot a 78 from the members tees at the Bear’s Club. He had 12 pars and six bogeys.

“I never make birdies,” he said. “I don’t think I made a birdie in November, or October.”"

[Enno Gerdes]

Thanks, Bryan, that's very interesting. So the two-club total of driver plus 8 iron was 390 yards (1950's), 395 yards (1960's), 413 yards (1980's), 498 yards (2010's). So that's +85 yards in 30 years, I assume due to a combination of ball, clubs, course maintenance, practice regime and fitness regime. Not picking sides here, just genuinely curious to see how much of a difference rolling back one of those elements will make. It'll be an interesting experiment.

[jeffwarne]

2 * 45 = 90

Glad your calculator app is working again. Mike said in the last 20 years. The 45 yards is since 1980:

The average of the Tour leader in driving distance has increased 45 yds since 1980, which is over 40 years.

Mike's point is that an untouchable 3 shot 600 yard par 5 is now routinely touchable in TWO shots.
Used to be 280(for a big hitter) plus 240, now it's 320, plus 290 3 wood.
I just watched Justin Rose hit 3 wood pin high on a 300 yard plus par 4 at The Players.
Many's the time driver was used by a Tour player off the deck from 250, now it's a 3 iron.
It doesn't matter why(se my previous detailed post)


As I said, the ship has sailed IMHO and I'm actually with you on this one Erik.
there's just hardley anyone left, and the few that are left(us old guys) probably don't want to lose 10% in their few remaining years playing against younger players
There's just too few elite players(or fans) who care or even played spinnier, smaller equipment.
It's as I said earlier, it's as if hickory was proposed in 1975(when I took up the game)-nobody was left to remember or care about equipment from the 20's or 30's.


WTF TOOK SO LONG
Seriously, WTF took so long, and now I see they're talking about 2026.
a joke, miles behind the curve,as they have always been on the distance issue, denying it(especially when it exploded in 2001-2005) until it was FAR TOO LATE for any of us to care anymore.


They just called the fire truck to clean up the (cold) ashes.

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