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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Watching the wind delay at Pebble got me thinking about design features that were perhaps introduced too soon to realize their full potential/usefulness.

For example, would green side containment mounding be more widely accepted if justified as way to protect against wind in the race to speed up greens? Seems they would provide enough of a wind break to allow for an unfettered double-digit stimp meld in those conditions, especially so on predominately windy sites.

I half jest of course, although there could be some degree of next level genius in that.  ;)

P.S. I've kind of wondered if cops could be deployed again too...

What others features were ahead of their time?








Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1

For example, would green side containment mounding be more widely accepted if justified as way to protect against wind in the race to speed up greens? Seems they would provide enough of a wind break to allow for an unfettered double-digit stimp meld in those conditions, especially so on predominately windy sites.



I'm guessing your mounding would backfire.  Often, the bunkers that have the most problem with wind erosion have a bit of a ridge at the back of them, which accelerates the downward flow of air on the back side of the feature.

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Cross Bunkers and the 'Steeplechase' design style.
Going back to this JH Taylor quote from the May 1920 issue of Golf Illustrated:
"Let me get back on to the tracks of my original theme and try and help the reader to realize that the heavy ball may possibly be an unjustifiable appendage to the game. We in Britain have seen ruthlessly eliminated from our links the cross bunker.It is a very rare thing indeed to see on any course this most effective trap. True, we do come across occasionally a deep,wide abyss that has to be crossed in the progress to the hole, but the old rampart-like structure that reared its head, proudly bidding defiance to one and all is gone. The purely artificial links will not tolerate it. I have often wondered why. We are told that the origin of the word "links" are those waste places by the sea where the game was first played. Such a place is Sandwich and Westward Ho! in England, Monifirth and Montrose in Scotland, but even there, which should be sacred, the blighting hand of the modern improver is seen. Hills have been removed, passages cut through miniature mountains in order that the players should not lose distance by having to hit a moderately high ball to carry them. I am thoroughly convinced that golf was meant to be played in the air. The ball was never meant to be trundled toward the hole. Obstructions should be carried boldly. The usual flat depression that goes by the name of bunker is as often as not jumped and taken in the stride as the ball goes scuttling along. There is not a prettier strike in the game than the high dropping shot up to the hole guarded by a high bunker.This requires great incubus of judgment in elevation and strength and betrays the hand of the master when successful. This sentinel that guarded the approach to the hole so effectively was condemned for no convincing reason and was swept away with impunity without scarcely a plea being heard in its defense.The high cross bunker was the last remaining link that bound the golfer of the early nineties to those old stalwarts of a generation before and it was hard to see its passing. It was the swansong of the lighter ball, as, by its passing, the heavier ball came into its illicit own. By its greater density and momentum it could not be nulled up when the high obstacle was close up to the green and therefore it was decreed that it must go, and with its going was rung the death knell of the long high-drooping stroke.We now see that the ground is clear for a long way directly in front of the green so that the lumbering heavy ball may be propelled with a low trajectory and undignified gait. Gone forever I fear is the boldly pitched up mashie shot, pitched to within a few yards of the pin. At a distance of 130 yards or so we tremblingly drop it well short, hoping that with good luck in its run it may eventually come to rest on the green somewhere"While Taylor was speaking of the aerial game as it was played with the guttie compared to the haskel ball. I believe the sentiment equally applies to today. The game as we knew it in the early 1900's has greatly shifted to being an aerial game. Golf balls and golf clubs today are designed with the intent of hitting the ball high and keeping the ball in the air as long as possible. Players, especially in the US, are not taught or conditioned to think of play along the ground, unless the putter is in their hands. The desire to play the ball in the air. 

While we few in GCA greatly desire to see the ball played more on the ground, we must realize that those opportunities for great ground play are few and far between. So rather than trying to force the square peg into the round hole, why not take inspiration from the past and design for a more aerial focused game?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1

While we few in GCA greatly desire to see the ball played more on the ground, we must realize that those opportunities for great ground play are few and far between. So rather than trying to force the square peg into the round hole, why not take inspiration from the past and design for a more aerial focused game?


Because average golfers have more trouble getting the ball in the air?  And making it stop on the far end?

Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0

While we few in GCA greatly desire to see the ball played more on the ground, we must realize that those opportunities for great ground play are few and far between. So rather than trying to force the square peg into the round hole, why not take inspiration from the past and design for a more aerial focused game?


Because average golfers have more trouble getting the ball in the air?  And making it stop on the far end?
More trouble than what? Does the average player today have more trouble hitting the ball in the air than a player from 50 years ago, how about 100 years ago, or 150 years ago?

The average player today hits their driver ~220 yards. A cross bunker set at 300 yards from the tee would not impact the drive of the average player and force upon them a carry of less than 100 yards to clear the bunker on their second shot. For the better, longer player,  the bunker at 300 yards would directly impact their decision off the tee effectively lengthening the hole for them

Even then, the average to below average player has historically been horrible. Horrible at matching the challenge of the game to their ability level, Horrible at picking tees that are too long for them, Horrible at playing courses that are too hard for them, horrible at making the game much harder for them as it should be, and horrible at believing their overly-challenging perspective of the game is what they should derive enjoyment from. If these golfers consistently ask for a challenge greater than what they can handle, why does it matter then if you gave them what they are asking for?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0

While we few in GCA greatly desire to see the ball played more on the ground, we must realize that those opportunities for great ground play are few and far between. So rather than trying to force the square peg into the round hole, why not take inspiration from the past and design for a more aerial focused game?


Because average golfers have more trouble getting the ball in the air?  And making it stop on the far end?
More trouble than what? Does the average player today have more trouble hitting the ball in the air than a player from 50 years ago, how about 100 years ago, or 150 years ago?

The average player today hits their driver ~220 yards. A cross bunker set at 300 yards from the tee would not impact the drive of the average player and force upon them a carry of less than 100 yards to clear the bunker on their second shot. For the better, longer player,  the bunker at 300 yards would directly impact their decision off the tee effectively lengthening the hole for them

Even then, the average to below average player has historically been horrible. Horrible at matching the challenge of the game to their ability level, Horrible at picking tees that are too long for them, Horrible at playing courses that are too hard for them, horrible at making the game much harder for them as it should be, and horrible at believing their overly-challenging perspective of the game is what they should derive enjoyment from. If these golfers consistently ask for a challenge greater than what they can handle, why does it matter then if you gave them what they are asking for?

I agree. Well placed cross bunkers are a great feature if not over used. They don't even need sand if done right. For those against cross bunkers I would say its better than hitting over water and that is an accepted part of the game.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Dunfanaghy, Fraserburgh, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0

While we few in GCA greatly desire to see the ball played more on the ground, we must realize that those opportunities for great ground play are few and far between. So rather than trying to force the square peg into the round hole, why not take inspiration from the past and design for a more aerial focused game?


Because average golfers have more trouble getting the ball in the air?  And making it stop on the far end?
More trouble than what? Does the average player today have more trouble hitting the ball in the air than a player from 50 years ago, how about 100 years ago, or 150 years ago?

The average player today hits their driver ~220 yards. A cross bunker set at 300 yards from the tee would not impact the drive of the average player and force upon them a carry of less than 100 yards to clear the bunker on their second shot. For the better, longer player,  the bunker at 300 yards would directly impact their decision off the tee effectively lengthening the hole for them

Even then, the average to below average player has historically been horrible. Horrible at matching the challenge of the game to their ability level, Horrible at picking tees that are too long for them, Horrible at playing courses that are too hard for them, horrible at making the game much harder for them as it should be, and horrible at believing their overly-challenging perspective of the game is what they should derive enjoyment from. If these golfers consistently ask for a challenge greater than what they can handle, why does it matter then if you gave them what they are asking for?


Ben,


I am the horrible golfer that you describe. And then I went to Ireland and Scotland to play links golf. Now I am still horrible. But I never make the “mistakes” that you describe.


I have no problem with courses that challenge the not horrible players (presumably you are one), but those are not actually the courses that most golfers are “asking for”—witness the success of Bandon et al.


Ira

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
I'm a bad golfer too and given all the current obstacles to the game, which are near endless... ;)

Adding a few cross bunkers, or even cops, would make little to no difference.  Because as Sean alluded to you don't typically lose your ball in em and avoid the 1 stroke penalty and drop.

The biggest deterrents for me are too many chances for lost balls, (in water or vegetation) and OB.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
To be clear, I think cross bunkers used judiciously (Tillinghast and forward) are a great feature as are holes such as Perfection and Point Garry. But not as a general design philosophy where aerial is the driving (no pun intended) factor.


Ira

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Biarri… err… the long Par 3 with an open approach that allows the option to hit a long club low and running.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1


 Does the average player today have more trouble hitting the ball in the air than a player from 50 years ago, how about 100 years ago, or 150 years ago?

The average player today hits their driver ~220 yards. A cross bunker set at 300 yards from the tee would not impact the drive of the average player and force upon them a carry of less than 100 yards to clear the bunker on their second shot. For the better, longer player,  the bunker at 300 yards would directly impact their decision off the tee effectively lengthening the hole for them

Even then, the average to below average player has historically been horrible. Horrible at matching the challenge of the game to their ability level, Horrible at picking tees that are too long for them, Horrible at playing courses that are too hard for them, horrible at making the game much harder for them as it should be, and horrible at believing their overly-challenging perspective of the game is what they should derive enjoyment from. If these golfers consistently ask for a challenge greater than what they can handle, why does it matter then if you gave them what they are asking for?


Hi Ben:


I'm not against the idea of building a cross bunker here or there.  But, every time I do, I have to weigh if it's worth being visited by the ghost of Alice Dye, and it's hard for me to ignore everything I learned from her, no matter how excited you are to add a bunch of hazards YOU can easily hit over.


Old courses were different than today because
(a). They didn't have to worry about how the cross bunker came into play from 4-6 different tees, and
(b). They generally didn't give a crap about the weaker player and especially the average woman golfer.


But a lot of my clients DO care, whether it's because they really want women to enjoy the course, or they just don't want to be seen as politically incorrect.


And cross hazards are a major issue for the average woman golfer, who can only carry the ball +/- 65 yards consistently.  If she is sixty yards from the near edge of the bunker and ninety from carrying it, she has the options of hitting a shot she knows won't get there, playing into the rough on one side, or laying up by deliberately hitting a 45-yard shot.  If I gave you those options on a hole, would you enjoy it?


Ben Hollerbach

  • Karma: +0/-0
What does it tell us that the course ranked number 1 in the world for the better part of a half century utilizes cross bunkering on nearly half its holes?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
What does it tell us that the course ranked number 1 in the world for the better part of a half century utilizes cross bunkering on nearly half its holes?


It tells us that men like dramatic golf courses, and women don't have much say in the rankings.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
What does it tell us that the course ranked number 1 in the world for the better part of a half century utilizes cross bunkering on nearly half its holes?


How many women members have they had through that time?
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 :P




whoa guys , plenty of women can carry the gronkle !  and lots of men can't

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Artificial turf

Wasn't really too soon, but wasn't good enough to work.


The early efforts were horrible. Anyone who has hit a ball from the early version of mats knows of golfer's elbow. I've also played to an artificial green and watched the resulting high bounce of the surface.  ;D  Btw, I've played sand greens too.

The most recent advancements, ignoring the sheer cost of the products, are impressive. You can build a forgiving hitting surfaces or a green with some give and the chance to enjoy something pretty close to normal play. Indoor chipping facilities in old curling rinks are an interesting re-purpose.

In a future with potential water access issues or zero tolerance for inputs, it's an interesting thought. We have examples of bunkers being built with artificial edges for sustainability now. The products will grow and expand with greater acceptance or need.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 08:28:14 AM by Ian Andrew »
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