[THuckaby2]

Well now there's a scoop.  For me anyway.

Good lord, who here besides me ISN'T a Golf Week rater?  

I have just lost all respect for Matt and now plan to disagree with him on a daily basis.  

I also fully expect him to start talking in numbers, like the rest of you.  IE, that Lou Duran, he's a great guy, I like him a lot.  But he lives in Texas so I rarely get to to see him.  I give him a solid 8.  

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

No Tom, I think its better that you start with the "Scores high points in shot values, tradition, walkability and green speeds" talk. It's much more in tune with the title of the thread.

[HamiltonBHearst]

I agree with Mr. huckaby in that human nature leads people to care especially members.  Isn't strange that the members of gca care and the members of the actual club do not.

I also think it would be a positive for architecture and clubs in the future if a club that has seemingly done things "the right way" were honored.  What the general public thinks has an affect on many many other clubs across the country.

I admire the fact that most everyone who has played FH has been member sponsered and they haven done the comp deal, but I suspect they have a pretty good feel on what raters have seen the course. Geez, the first call is my name is ___, i am a rater for  can I play your course.  These names do tend to appear one way or another.

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:  I give that post a solid 7.  Well done.  Might have been a 9 had you not included green speeds, which aren't one of the criteria.  Of course I know this because when something's good, I know it when I see it.  

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, that one is Golf Magazine right?!?!

[III]

I think Dallas National will give Friar's Head a battle for best new private course.

[THuckaby2]

Tom, that one is Golf Magazine right?!?!

I dunno... if so, you just jumped up to a solid 9.  

Riddle me this, btw - do you guys ever have any ratings that aren't "solid"?

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Hammy,
Trust me on this. The membership of Friars Head does not care one iota. Besides as Ron Whitten has shown us, they are a "stuffy" lot over there (which is hilarious given the fact that they allow 465 pound greazy Eyetalian electricians from La Habra, California in there.)

[HamiltonBHearst]

Getting back to the list and how many courses have stood the test of time.  I would argue one Sand Hills and unfortunately so few have seen it most think the uniqueness is because it is so remote.

This is why I want FH to win badly (even if Ken Bakst and the members do not care .  Because it is a tradtional course, a traditional club, near a met area, that could have a big affect on what is built in the future in all areas.

Do all these Rees Jones & Tom Fazio winners help or hurt architecture going forward?

[HamiltonBHearst]

Mr. Naccarato-

I am sure with your love of the game you are most welcome at many clubs stuffy or not.  It was your love of the game from the SI article that directed me to this website. Happy Thanksgiving.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks Tom, I needed that "9" for my credibility rating.

III or is it "lll"?

Yes, there you go, give it to Dallas National. Texas deserves it. (picture the actor Noble Willingham saying this) The best damn Fazioh golf course, in the best damn state in the union, governed by the best damn presdent that evar lived!" "How bout them Cowboys!" (ugh, I'm making myself sick)

Yes, please Ron Whitten give it to Fazio and Dallas National--consider this a campaign for you to give it to them!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Hammy, Happy T-day to you too! I really mean that.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Hammy, You bring up a great point:

"Do all these Rees Jones & Tom Fazio winners help or hurt architecture going forward?"

Without trying to sound biased, because I am a biased person, because I like to celebrate and acknowledge real greatness compared to name value, I think so.

Last night I had a conversation with a very intelligent golf writer (no it wasn't Geoff Shackelford, but I did talk to him too, so make it two intelligent golf writers) about the architecture books and writings and how it could be possible to create more of a market for the subject, and he hit me hard with the straight truth and fact--my world (our world) is a small world in the Game of Golf. People don't care abotu golf architecture--they just want to know what Chi Chi said To Jack, or how to Golf my Way, or how Golf is a microcosom to life. I used to like that stuff too, but the world doesn't view C.B. Mac Donald or Alister MacKenzie as classic characters in a classy game. They don't even know who they are. They want to know angles of the professional game and how low they can shoot and how they do it with the dynamic personalities of Mike Weir to Scott Hoch.

I have said this before, that if I went to La Mirada Golf Course this very morning--asked anyone there if they have ever seen, played or heard of Pine Valley, 90% of them wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about. It's almost a guarantee that 100% of them wouldn't even have a clue who Billy Bell Jr. was either, and that's the guy who designed the course. But ask them who Tom Fazio is, Rees Jones, and his father, and they would be able to tell you--How do they know? I would hazard a guess would be that it is because they heard it form some sort of media outlet such as a magazine, Golf Channel or CBS, NBC, or ABC Golf Announcer. Most of them can't afford to play Pelican Hill nor have the time to stand around and wait to play a 6 hour round at Torrey Pines

Now I ask, is that good for the Game of Golf?

Judging by the falling numbers of round played, no it isn't.

Happy T-Day Hammy. I hope someday we meet.

[Steve Lapper]

Yes, there you go, give it to Dallas National. Texas deserves it. (picture the actor Noble Willingham saying this) The best damn Fazioh golf course, in the best damn state in the union, governed by the best damn presdent that evar lived!" "How bout them Cowboys!" (ugh, I'm making myself sick)

BY,

The Emporer

PERFECT!

[THuckaby2]

he hit me hard with the straight truth and fact--my world (our world) is a small world in the Game of Golf. People don't care abotu golf architecture--they just want to know what Chi Chi said To Jack, or how to Golf my Way, or how Golf is a microcosom to life. I used to like that stuff too, but the world doesn't view C.B. Mac Donald or Alister MacKenzie as classic characters in a classy game. They don't even know who they are. They want to know angles of the professional game and how low they can shoot and how they do it with the dynamic personalities of Mike Weir to Scott Hoch.

I have said this before, that if I went to La Mirada Golf Course this very morning--asked anyone there if they have ever seen, played or heard of Pine Valley, 90% of them wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about. It's almost a guarantee that 100% of them wouldn't even have a clue who Billy Bell Jr. was either, and that's the guy who designed the course. But ask them who Tom Fazio is, Rees Jones, and his father, and they would be able to tell you--How do they know? I would hazard a guess would be that it is because they heard it form some sort of media outlet such as a magazine, Golf Channel or CBS, NBC, or ABC Golf Announcer. Most of them can't afford to play Pelican Hill nor have the time to stand around and wait to play a 6 hour round at Torrey Pines

Tommy:

EUREKA!  His eyes are opened!

I read this with quite a bit of bemusement, because come on my friend, this is what I told you about 10 years ago, and have reiterated to you at least 3 times a year ever since. I take no offense in that it took intelligent golf writers telling you the same thing for you to finally believe it.  

And you know what?  There's really nothing wrong with this.  Just abide in the Paulian Dogma - it is one big beautiful world of golf, with room for one and all - and your stress level will decrease remarkably.

But something tells me you LIKE stress.

So don't be too bummed - there's enough screwed up in golf that there will always be windmills for you to tilt at.

I say all this lovingly and with the utmost respect.  

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, Its not that I don't know this and don't have my eyes opened, I just feel sometimes the fight is a impossible one. I do have my case studies--your one of them!

But yes, the truth does hurt and it is salt in the wounds.

I'm off to the gym! Going to take my agressions out on a treadmill!

[THuckaby2]

I'm sure I am one of your case studies.  I just wonder if I come out positive or negative...  

The fight is an impossible one, Tommy - there are SO many more of them then there are of you.  Give up.  You'll be so much happier that way... Live the Tom Paul dogma.

Oh hell, what am I saying?  That's like asking a dog not to bark.  It's just against his nature, as not fighting the good fight would be against yours.

Sounds like you have this all right on and managed, anyway - just try to focus more on the positive case studies than the golf world as a whole.  THEN you'll be truly happy, and the frustrations will be easily managed, and there will be no wounds for salting.

Doctor Tom, signing off.  Take care, my friend.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

George P:

If memory serves me -- Black Mesa is an affordable nominee --I believe weekday green fees are $36 and weekends / holidays are $40. If you want to walk that's fine -- carts are available but extra.

[THuckaby2]

Walking Black Mesa was a chore that I wouldn't do again.  Thank God saner heads prevailed in our pm round and we rode.   But in any case, those prices Matt lists seem correct to me...

But Matt, no comment on your outing as a GW rater, not even to note the irony of such occurring on the same day shivas posts a thread about Queer Eye for the Straight Guy?

You sell-out, you.  And just when I was starting to have such respect for your judgment.  

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Let you in on a secret -- promise not to tell anyone OK -- I'm a mercenary at heart ... I go where the big bucks are at. Tommy -- told me if you're going to sell out do it for big bucks!

P.S. What concerns me about private clubs and their ratings assessments is the wherewithal to "cherry pick" particular raters for their evaluations. I mean why take the risk and invite people to assess your course who are not "given" to a predisposition to favor your layout, your architect, etc, etc. Makes you wonder, huh?

Nah -- this doesn't happen because people don't care about such trivial concerns.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

Your candor earned you back my respect.  I'm sure that's  hugely important to you.  

I've never thought of the ratings game that way... interesting...

But if that's the case, Tommy would never be allowed to set foot on ANY course, would he?  And I'd have to fight off courses nation-wide, vying for my positive attitude....  

TH

[Brad Swanson]

Tommy N.
   So Friar's Head obtaining a 'Best of..." is going to spoil it how?  Will it make it more accessible to the unwashed masses like myself?  Last time I checked, Pine Valley being awarded the Best Course period so many times by several golf rags has not made it any easier for me to gain access.  

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[A_Clay_Man]

Brad- I wonder how much TN is baiting RW. Just as RW baited TN with his review of the Rawls Course. I don't think either will be succesful. (thats the baiting, but i'll yield to the master)

[larry_munger]

They may not care about the Golf Digest new, it's GD remember, but I'am sure they would like people with some understanding of GCA to regard it as one of America's best, which it is!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brad,
It doesn't matter what I think, really.

What matters most in regards to Friars Head is that it s far from being "North Shore Stuffy" or (Stuffiness) as Ron Whitten claims; It has some of the best 18 individual golf holes of varying character and charm that I have ever seen on a course that was built after 1960, let alone 1912. The membership are very happy people--at least the ones that I have met. They remind me of the people I see at the gym--everyone is happy because they are all working out and feeling good. they know they are in the right place, and doing the right thing to be there. They love being their and they are proud of the gym itself. they make sure they leave the place the way they found it--perfect.

Friars Head is a special place even now with the small little temporary barn/clubhouse that currently serves the members to the wonderful looking clubhouse that will eventually be built. I even have a place already picked out where I'm going to build my own little Ted Kacynski-style cabin, and I'm going to get one of these new Intel Centrino computers that use less power so I have full internet access via satellite. Tom Paul is going to have a place right next to me.

I'm doing this of course without any of the members knowing I'm out there. I would hate to test their happiness-threshold.

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