[Steve Lapper]

B.F.D.


    Ron Whitten is worthless!

[Mike Erdmann]

How does GD pick "Architect of the Year", anyways?  Do they have an actual process, or is the lucky architect just annointed so by Ron Whitten?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

I had the pleasure of playing Friars Head a few weeks ago on a perfectly lovely day with Ken Bakst as my host.... Never once did he bring up ratings, or any magazine(s) or anything to do with that.

I think that's inherent, as evidenced by your presence
Ditto, Ron Whitten

Anyone who makes architecture judgments on that basis is lazy or a fool. The only way to judge a course is to see it, walk it and play it.

This rings a bell, where have I heard this before ?  

Friar's Head is a wonderful golf course, and what Ken Bakst is trying to accomplish culturally, is a noble pursuit.

Saying that Ken and the members don't care what others think of their golf course seems unrealistic.  
I would think that Ken and every member takes great pride in the golf course and the culture that exists there.  
Why else would they join ?

There is nothing wrong with being considered one of the top golf courses/facilities in the country, why all the denial from people who aren't even members ?  I don't understand it.

[Matthew Schulte]

Haven't heard much speculation on the public side other than Black Mesa or TT Rawls for Best New Affordable and the Quarry at Giant's Ridge the Best New Upscale.  

What are some of your candidates for Best New Upscale.

With GD's endless appreciation of Jim Engh's work I suspect we will see Fossil Trace high on the list of Best New Affordable.  Personally, I am disappointed that he hasn't tried any new bunkering concepts.  All of his work looks very, very, very similar to my eye.

[Matthew Schulte]

Slapper:

I couldn't agree more about Whitten.  Seems to have his own agenda.

[Robert Thompson]

I don't really see how personal attacks on Ron Whitten really accomplish anything in this debate. Some on this site, apparently with some insight from the club membership, believe that the fine folks at Friar's Head don't care about an accolade from Golf Digest. Others seem to think it is hard to ignore.

But where does the notion that Ron Whitten is worthless come into this? I didn't find anything particularly bothersome in his review of Friar's Head. It is also quite clear that Bill Coore (who sounds like an interesting chap) values Whitten's opinion, which is why he received an invite to play Friar's Head in the first place. If the architect who built Friar's Head brough Whitten along, then I think Mr. Whitten deserves some respect.

As for his comments in his review of Friar's Head that the club fosters an attitude of "North Shore stuffiness," that's an individual assessment. Do you find score cards without a yardage to be pretentious? That's for each individual in the club membership to determine.

Does the membership and Mr. Bakst care about being "Best New Private" in the January issue of Golf Digest? Well it sure sounds like they've let everyone know they don't -- which makes me a bit suspicious, really. If the award doesn't mean anything, why make such a big deal about it?

In the end, winning the award is recognition - nothing more, nothing less - that the course was regarded as the best of its type in a certain year by a group of low handicap golfers who work for one of the world's most notable golf publications. Time will truly tell whether it is great.

It has been my experience (as a journalist and course rater) that courses often say they don't care about ratings until they drop below what is deemed acceptable to them. Then they care....

This thread, however, seems to have deteriorated and I'm not clear on what it is accomplishing at this point. I'm sure there will be a stir when the GD results are out -- and given the debate on this forum -- it is clear that many people on GCA are avidly waiting them.

Robert

[Mike Erdmann]

With the teaser on the Golf Digest website saying "From Idaho to New Mexico to Michigan, this year's top young tracks are loaded with surprises.", and then with Jim Engh being Architect of the Year, it seems like maybe Engh's Black Rock in Coeur D Alene, Idaho might just be a big surprise as best new private.  Would certainly put an end to the Friar's Head vs. Dallas National debate!  

[Matt_Ward]

I'd mention a course that I played in West Virginia called The Palmer Course at Stonewall Resort. The course is located in the heart of West Virginia and is part of a mega size state park that also includes the golf.

The Palmer Course isn't much a unique design -- in fact it's rather ordinary on many fronts with plenty of the pro forma holes one has seen in other Palmer Courses. However, the terrain is indeed dynamic and it may just be a sleeper to watch in the Upscale Category.

One other thing -- the new Tom Doak design at Texas Tech, I believe, is not eligible for the '03 awards.

P.S. Plus -- On the affordable side I would also recommend watching out for Jim Engh's superb design (minus the inane 5th hole there!) for Fossil Trace just outside of Denver. Superb back nine routing among tight property lines. Very affordable and maximum fun.

Even with that in my mind Black Mesa is still the one to beat in that category.

[Brad Swanson]

P.S. Plus -- On the affordable side I would also recommend watching out for Jim Engh's superb design (minus the inane 5th hole there!) for Fossil Trace just outside of Denver. Superb back nine routing among tight property lines. Very affordable and maximum fun.

Matt,
   After nearly taking one in the noggin while putting out on #16 from a 4some of dopes that were trying to drive 10 green, I can't wholeheartedly agree with the suberb back nine routing assessment.  Granted, any routing on that property was a serious challenge.  In the plus column, the course does have some interesting and fun holes, with some good greens that will be very difficult to putt once up to speed.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Matthew Schulte]

Jim Engh is the architect of the year??

I know I need to give this a rest, however, will he make a career out of building the same holes and the same bunkers time after time.  

Look at #13 at Redlands Mesa and #18 at Red Hawk Ridge and tell me this isn't a designer who imparts pre-concieved golf holes onto the land.  They are very nearly identical holes.  His serpentine bunkering style is the same on all of his courses.  Not only is the look repetitive but his contouring is so severe that it produces some serious maintenance challenges.  I can support that statement as I recently witnessed a riding mower get stuck along the left bank of the lake fronting the 18th green at Fossil Trace.  So stuck in fact that they had bring in a tractor, connect the chains and pull the mower back.  I know, you say, oh, the mower was too close to the edge.  Not the case.  This is overcontouring.

Many of you will say Fazio too has made a career out of building courses with the same bunkering scemes.  Perhaps some could say even C&C's bunkers are very similar.  

Does this stem from the client insisting that he/she get a "Jim Engh Course" and the architect being bullied into repeatedly building the same styles of courses, or is this the result of the architect's, (Engh in this case) unwillingness to attempt something new?

Even our beloved Mr. Whitten, I believe, touched on Engh's repitition in his recent review of Fossil Trace.  So if others feel as I do, let down by his unwillingness to expand his horizon's, why do we reward this with awards such as architect of the year?

[Ron_Whitten_isadop]

http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/bestnew/


Sorry, the last e wouldn't fit in my name.

Anyway, the idea that Fazio or Engh could build something in the same zip code of quality as Friar's Head is so ludicrous that it just completely devalues the magazine and its panel. Whitten might not have a hidden agenda, all you conspiracy theorists. He and his panel might just be idiots.

[Jim_Michaels]

http://www.blackrockidaho.com/course.html

Its a good thing one can't tell anything about a course from pictures or I could be astounded that people would love this course. I think the Golf Digest people just answered my question for me. No, we shouldn't care about the results of their survey.

[THuckaby2]

Friar's Head in third behind Black Rock and Dallas National...

As a GD rater, I guess I better go don the flame-proof suit!

Yes, Whitten and our panel might be idiots, but then again, there might be different tastes for different people.  Why is it always such a given that what's favored in this discussion group is always unquestionably "right"?

Hey, I've seen none of these courses, I'm just asking.  

And that being said, I am quite happy for Baxter Spann and the nice folks at Black Mesa that they got Best New Affordable.  This will mean something to them, methinks.  Good call, Matt Ward.  

TH

[Steve Lapper]

As someone who has posted extensively here on this thread:

   I am thrilled that Ron Whitten and his merry band of raters has not chosen Friar's Head as the best new private course. As I've said here before...Big F...g Deal!!

  I'm sure I'll have to hear it from John Mac just how good Dallas Nat'l is, but he's probably right, it is likely deserved of such ratings.

   Whitten is exactly the kind of guy who would rank Engh, Fazio and Nicklaus ahead of MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Colt and Flynn.


Pat,

    I'm told that Ken Bakst and all of his Friars Head members are now asking for their $$ back from Bill and Ben. Some want Dennis Kozlowski to take it over...with you as the membership director. ;)They all took their toys and went home dejected. You are sooo off base here.

[Brad Swanson]

Congrats to Baxter Spann for the well deserved recognition of Black Mesa as an outstanding layout.  Matt Ward and I might be the only 2 GCA regulars that have played both Black Mesa and Fossil Trace (unless Doug Wright snuck out to Fossil Trace late this season).  IMHO, Black Mesa is head-and-shoulders (and maybe even belly) above Fossil Trace (with the disclaimer that the site for Fossil Trace was pretty bad).  Also, I sure would like to see Jim Engh try to get away from the amoeba/labia (as per RJ Daly) bunkers.  Matt Schulte's comments on the maintenance requirements for his layouts and the similarities of their looks are right on target.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Dan Kelly]

And The Quarry at Giants Ridge is nowhere to be found.

Jeff Brauer --

I haven't played the 10 that beat it, so I can't say: You was robbed!

But I can say this: I have a very strong hunch that you was robbed!

Dan

[Jim Franklin]

Having played both Dallas Nat'l and Friars Head, I was surprised to see DN ahead of FH AND neither one winning. While I totally enjoyed DN and think it is worthy of #2 on the Best New, FH was in a different league. I need to take a standing 8.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

Not to worry, the Quarry didn't open early enough this year to be in the hunt.

The new issue of Golf World names it one of the six golf destinations of the year, so it continues to get some good publicity.

On the brighter side (for me) my Legacy near Des Moines did finish 10th in the affordble category, which is a pleasant surprise, given that we built it for $2 Million in a cornfield!

[RJ_Daley]

Sorry, I still haven't read much of this thread as I think I know that it is the same old stuff.  I did pick it up again when I saw that Ron Whitten is a dope...  

I think that RW and the various other magazine ratings game meisters have become a victim of their own success with the public.  The ratings came along when not much golf architecture discussion or consideration was exchanged among golfers, particularly here in the U.S.  We saw the golf boom of mediocre course developments of the 50s and 60s and then, the ignorant public needed a guy like Whitten or the other magazines to tell them what they ought to like in their golf courses.  The course building boom continued and picked up in pace, and the ignorant public needed to be kept up to speed as to what was really good in the quality of the golf courses they were being offered because they really didn't know for themselves.  

But soon enough through the 90s, so many new courses, so many remodelled older ones, so many archies and so much success in that golf boom began to bring confusion and chaos to the little enterprise Whitten on Doak and others had carved out for themselves by helping the average joe golfer to determine what was good.  Some of the average golfers actually began to consider the merits of what constitutes a good golf course and pretty soon they actually began to get smart and figure things out for themselves without Whitten or Doak's help.  Then, the opinionated dominant ones began to really pick up on the whole GCA discussion thing, and we now have two classes of golfers, those that get it, and those that don't.  Couple that with the chaos of golf course development, and a plethora of new offerings, and we get a tower of babel effect.  Now, guys like Whitten can't win.  They are the victims of their own success.  They turned on so many people to have some taste and opinion about the golf courses, that they are now considered the dopes because they (the rating services) also havew an agenda, taste, or golf rating business to run.  

The only place the real connocenti of GCA are going to learn anything is here on GCA through serious comparison debate or serious GCA book reading.  The dopes still need Whitten and the others to tell them what is good.  And, we get all offended because the ratings are now a reflection of the dopes, not the knowlegeable (which hardly existed 20 years ago) and Whitten et al., ratings game entreprenuers have become ringmasters of the circus of the ignorant that still need help deciding. So they reflect the lower common denominator or golf course/club appreciation and popular taste.  In that circumstance, the high art never generally wins.  Kingsley Club wasn't on the radar screen, now Friar's Head falls short, and only once in a while a really good one is recognised for what it is in quality rather than public consumption like Rustic Canyon or now Black Mesa.  But, the most ardent of GCA fans will always find fault with the ringmaster and call him a dope.  He can't win at this stage... and he is the one who started it.

[Dan Kelly]

GCA Band Name of the Day:

Circus of the Ignorant.

[Matt_Ward]

Brad S:

Fossil Trace is a good indicator of how an architect works with a very tight piece of real estate. I do believe the 5th is such a major league disappointment for a short hole -- and a few of the remaining holes on the front nine -- the long 9th is just a yardage filler to get near the clubhouse.

The back side is well done IMHO -- it accomplishes plenty of things for a small amount of land. One other thing -- I do like the bunker style you find at Fossil Trace -- give Jim Engh credit -- the bunkers there are not the pro forma "cat traps" you often find on taxpayer owned courses. Anyone visiting the Golden area would be wise in my book to play there and see for themselves.

Brad -- I do concur 1000% that Black Mesa is way beyond Fossil Trace. The Baxter Spann design simply blows away the competition and I would say that given the recent winners of the award (Rustic Canyon among them) the real ultimate winners are in that category. When you have to build a course for a limited budget and only charge less than $50 for greens fees it takes a lot of skill to bring forward a rockem sockem layout that reall captivates the player. Black Mesa does that and so much more.

P.S. There have been discussion on building a second course at Black Mesa and I truly hope it will be no less in quality than what the original most certainly is. Kudos to the management team at Black Mesa in not succumbing to the desire to "dumb down" the design.  

[RJ_Daley]

Dan Kelly, I was wondering when you'd start the band name of the day here as a regular feature like you do in your column.

For those of you GCA readers that want some variety in your daily addiction to reading columns, try Dan's at Pioneer Press.  The link here from yesterday's contributors really touched my heart as to the first to entries.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/living/people/7370573.htm

[Lou_Duran]

RJ,

Perhaps I missed your point, but for a populist, man-of-the-people type that you seem to be, when it comes to golf have you become an elitist?  Opinions about golf courses seem to be as varied as they are about politics.  However, only on this site do the former appear to be as polarized as in the latter.

To the best of my knowledge, the GD list is a composite ranking of that magazine's panelists.  Why Whitten is being called names by others is beyond me.   Maybe it is rooted in the same malignancy which leads some people to call conservative political thinkers "stupid, idiots, embarrassments, haters, greedy" etc.  Perhaps it is a way to give someone's otherwise unsupportable views some bouyancy.

GD, GM, and GW publish lists which everyone appears to agree are flawed and mean little.  Yet we proceed to go bonkers ad naseum with petty arguments and hurled insults.

Personally, I'll continue to read these rankings with interest and know that if I got to play Black Rock or Friar's Head, I would have a delightful time.  I am sure that Mr. Engh is an accomplished designer, and I would find his work to have considerable merit.  Having played Dallas National and Spanish Oaks, I have no doubt that the GD poll has considerable validity.  It may not be the gospel according to Matt Ward, slapper (?), Dick Daley, or Lou Duran, but, that's okay.  I was not blown away by Black Mesa, but have no problem at all with its selection by GD.  Maybe it has something to do with variety (in many things) being the spice of life.                  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Band Name of the Day was a dish I had at PF Chang's today:

Hot Fish

[RJ_Daley]

Lou, apparently you did miss the point...  Or, maybe I didn't write clearly enought to make it

I'm not calling RW a dope, I'm calling the system of rating a modern day farce, and it now only seems to apply to the lowest common denominator of the wide golfing public that still don't do their homework, or are too intellectually lazy to go learn for themselves and thus wind up putting their stock and credence in this yearly ratings fest.  I am being somewhat elitist however.  I much more respect and am likely to learn something by participating or just listening to debate about merits of golf courses within a small group of well versed real golf architecture nuts like GCA.com than I will ever learn or be impressed by the wider, pop culture composite tastes of the various rating services.  They have become a big business or feature for their respective magazine's business.  They appeal to the broad at large consumer base and generally (not always) miss the high art side of the subject.  Why, because they are a composite of well versed and not so well versed raters, and then it seems the rating guru, Whitten or whoever else runs the other rating services seem to add their own spin-edit for whatever reasons for stuff like intangibles, traditions etc.  I respect Whitten for being a leader and bellcow in his field of rating and commenting on GCA.  But, I still think he has now suffered the circumstance where people that he may have originally turned on to GCA are now calling him a dope.  

But, thanks for calling me a man of the people populist type of guy, generally speaking .  When it comes to health care and other socio-economic issues, I'll take that anytime.  But, I can also be elitist ass too.  A chameleon am I...

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