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Tim Martin

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2022, 12:25:21 PM »
The only real surprise in the field to me is DJ.  It seems that he is stating that he recognizes he is at the end of his career--and no longer really competitive.  I'm surprised he feels that way.  I'm disappointed.


Jim-I don’t see it that way at all. It’s about the money and if $150 million is correct that makes the picture a lot clearer.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 12:28:38 PM by Tim Martin »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2022, 12:32:06 PM »
Brandel just made a point to say that the figures being tossed about assume the Saudis actually pay what they say they will pay.

Unless DJ gets $150M right away, he might find that he gets $25M, then another $25M, and then when the third payment is due… well, "the check is in the mail…". And to whom would he really complain?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Bruce Katona

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2022, 12:36:57 PM »
DJ's will likely lose sponsor RBC since The Canadian Open is upcoming shortly. 


If the $150 MM is true, I'm thinking Saudia (Saudi Arabian Airlines) has already been contacted about room becoming available on Dustin's apparel/hat/etc.....just saying.

Mike Worth

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2022, 12:40:32 PM »
Looks like the average field for a Euro tour event that we see on TGC at 8:00 am on weekends.
It's certainly not a major field or a field like the Memorial. But, looks like some event that we see all the time, but with Saudis and Greg Norman controversy instead of a low-noise event.



These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.


I don’t know the answer to this. But aren’t there some pros who play on the PGA Tour and also play European events? So what part of a player’s agreement/contract with the PGA Tour permits players to alternatively play events in the US and Europe?


And if there is such an arrangement, why doesn’t the PGA Tour relent and let players go to the LIV?  My reasoning is if players can go to Europe, why can’t they participate in LIV?  Is it because the PGA doesn’t like that the Saudi ruler had a journalist murdered?


And if there is such an arrangement with Europe, I would think the PGA legal position is quite weak. What makes it OK to play in Europe but not LIV? 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 12:42:13 PM by Mike Worth »

John McCarthy

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2022, 12:43:11 PM »
What about sponsors?


https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/



Steve:


I bet his sponsors are beyond livid.  I had a nice chat once with a woman who works for a major telecommunications company who decides which player has their logo on their shirt and bag.  The annual pay was eight figures.  But for that you get to feature the player in your advertisements, corporate meet and greet etc. 


The perception for many is that Saudi money is blood money - not to mention the climate change issue.  You don't pay a player eight figures to bring heat down on your company - whether or not it is deserved.
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2022, 12:45:10 PM »
Looks like the average field for a Euro tour event that we see on TGC at 8:00 am on weekends.
It's certainly not a major field or a field like the Memorial. But, looks like some event that we see all the time, but with Saudis and Greg Norman controversy instead of a low-noise event.



These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.


I don’t know the answer to this. But aren’t there some pros who play on the PGA Tour and also play European events? So what part of a player’s agreement/contract with the PGA Tour permits players to alternatively play events in the US and Europe?


And if there is such an arrangement, why doesn’t the PGA Tour relent and let players go to the LIV?  My reasoning is if players can go to Europe, why can’t they participate in LIV?  Is it because the PGA doesn’t like that the Saudi ruler had a journalist murdered?


And if there is such an arrangement with Europe, I would think the PGA legal position is quite weak. What makes it OK to play in Europe but not LIV?


Mike-It’s somewhat of a Catch-22 for the PGA Tour because once you start banning a cadre of highly ranked players you dilute your own product.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 12:47:05 PM by Tim Martin »

Jimmy Chandler

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2022, 12:47:27 PM »
$ ?
Money.


Sorry, it was late at night and I took a shortcut.

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2022, 12:51:09 PM »
There are plenty of inferior fields on every Tour in the world. Saudis have been involved with loads of tours and world wide golfers with investment in corporations and hosting their own lucrative events. The look is only bad because people decided to look. Nobody bothered looking previously. It took a a few loud mouth schmucks to get the attention of the media. What happens then? People attack the loud mouth schmucks. If its OK for a schmuck wearing a tie to line his pockets with dirty money, why not for a schmuck swinging a club? The standard has been set. All Phil and Greg did was to brazenly follow the standard. Maybe it's the personality of these guys that people don't care for rather than the source of the money.

Ciao
Just to clarify what I meant: I was referring to taking guaranteed money instead of competing on the most competitive golf tour, I was not referencing the Saudi angle. I believe even without the Saudis being involved, the PGA Tour would react, justifiably, just as strongly to a similarly funded competing operation.

Brian_Ewen

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2022, 01:03:13 PM »

Steve Lang

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2022, 02:04:35 PM »
 8)  Money Money Money, call it what you will...


I walked and talked with Fuzzy Z between holes at a Champions Tour event and asked him why he plays pro golf?  He said, literally without missing a step and smiling: "You know, someone puts that prize money out there for grabs, and I'm going to go play for it!" 


Now take James Piot, 23 yrs old won US Am in 2021, All-American at MSU, I see he has 1000-1 odds at The Memorial... missed cut at Masters... just turned pro, how much can he make in a couple years in the Super Golf League versus the PGA Tour?


Most folks work a lifetime to build family and a nest egg to retire on... 6 and seven figures worth for most with a good job(s) a little planning, and even with good luck or the lottery maybe a little more.  Of course most professions pay better than jobs... 


You know, with the Saudi's normally producing around 10,000,000 plus barrels a day and a landed price of $100 plus a barrel, we're talking $1,000,000,000 a day of cash flow. Funding this new golf league, no problem...     
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2022, 02:07:29 PM »
With Phil Mickelson probably still negotiating with the Saudi, the Dustin Johnson announcement may very well put a major dent in what Mickelson thought he was going to sign for. At 37 years of age, and still in his prime, perhaps Dustin will welcome just playiing in the 8 limited events, taking home a guarantee of $250 million plus a lot of prize money he can make against a field that is less talented than Dustin.


I remember Curt Flood when I was growing up who tested Major League Baseball and created free agency. I think this situation is different since golf pros are independent contractors, but I'd love to see the actual contract pga pros with with the pga, their CONDUCT CLAUSE, PROHIBITIONS, ETC.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 02:25:23 PM by cary lichtenstein »
Lived Chicago, now Jupiter, Fl, was a 4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 3 back, wrist, shoulder surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, I don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2022, 02:10:26 PM »
Brandel just made a point to say that the figures being tossed about assume the Saudis actually pay what they say they will pay.

Unless DJ gets $150M right away, he might find that he gets $25M, then another $25M, and then when the third payment is due… well, "the check is in the mail…". And to whom would he really complain?


I wonder, did Brandel also make the point that DJ could play in a dozen PGA Tour events, miss the cut in all of them, and go home with not a lot ?


Anyway, how many PGA Tour events do you need to win to get £25m ?


Niall

Greg Clark

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2022, 02:28:27 PM »
Looks like the average field for a Euro tour event that we see on TGC at 8:00 am on weekends.
It's certainly not a major field or a field like the Memorial. But, looks like some event that we see all the time, but with Saudis and Greg Norman controversy instead of a low-noise event.



These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.


The answer to this is that the Euro Tour doesn't hold events in North America and isn't offering tens of millions to the PGA Tour's top players.  There were some that thought the Tour would grant a release for the first event as it was overseas, and they have a history of granting releases.  The Tour may be smart to hold disciplinary action on players until the next event at Pumpkin Ridge in early July.  PGA policy does not allow its players to play in tournaments from a competing tour in North America.  They would likely be on firmer ground to wait until then, although that doesn't seem to be the path they will take.


Obviously litigation is coming, and on it rests the future of the PGA Tour and also the Euro Tour.  LIV and the PGA Tour can't peacefully co-exist.  One is going to win and one is going to lose.  I think a huge player in this is going to be what Augusta, the USGA, the R&A, and the PGA of America do.  If LIV players continue to gain access to the majors, then that will be a big development; as would be access to The Ryder Cup.  If they can't access these events, I think LIV will fail before the litigation is finished.


Also big will be if, and how many, world ranking points will be awarded for LIV events.  The announced field top to bottom is really poor for the London event.  Even if points are awarded, players playing exclusively with LIV are going to see their rankings drop quickly due to poor fields and lack of events.  As a result they may not qualify for major tournaments based just on that.  Playing 14-15 big money events plus the majors will be appealing to many.  Getting paid to play in events with no current broadcast rights and no entry to majors or the Ryder Cup is not going to be.


Another factor is how long are the Saudis really prepared to bleed large amounts of money.  LIV has hired a respected production company to broadcast their events, but they have not been able to secure broadcast partners.  They have been trying, but failing.  The first event can only be seen on YouTube the last I saw.  Very, very few people are going to watch these events.  Sponsors are not going to be happy that their players are not being seen.  The Saudis have overcome that issue in the short term by money whipping players.  Let's see how long that lasts.


Either way, the PGA Tour IMO is going to need to make some more significant changes to how it operates.  Appearance money may be a start.  Significant (beyond 20%) increases in purses would be another.  Allowing some sharing of media rights with the players is less likely, but maybe where things end up.


As I was typing this out, I see that RBC has dropped Johnson and McDowell.  More to come I'm sure.






I don’t know the answer to this. But aren’t there some pros who play on the PGA Tour and also play European events? So what part of a player’s agreement/contract with the PGA Tour permits players to alternatively play events in the US and Europe?


And if there is such an arrangement, why doesn’t the PGA Tour relent and let players go to the LIV?  My reasoning is if players can go to Europe, why can’t they participate in LIV?  Is it because the PGA doesn’t like that the Saudi ruler had a journalist murdered?


And if there is such an arrangement with Europe, I would think the PGA legal position is quite weak. What makes it OK to play in Europe but not LIV?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 02:31:13 PM by Greg Clark »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2022, 02:38:44 PM »
I guarantee Justin Dustin has the money in an iron clad escrow account, to be released upon terms 100% favorable to him, probably equal to his projected earnings over the next 10 years. If we see Phil's name appear in the remaining 6, his deal will have to cover somehow his loss of sponsorship or maybe it's too late on that, maybe it will just salvage enough so he can continue living and gambling.


I don't know about any of you, but I feel bad for Phil. What he said any lawyer would have said in negotiations in PRIVATE on behalf of his client, except Phil said it to the wrong guy.  The old saying saying by Thomas Edison " You will have many opportunities in life to keep your mouth shut: You should take advantage of every one of them"
Lived Chicago, now Jupiter, Fl, was a 4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 3 back, wrist, shoulder surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, I don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms

Mike Worth

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2022, 02:48:40 PM »
So RBC decided to drop Dustin Johnson and Graham McDowell based on “just because“ principles?  And they weren’t nudged or otherwise asked by the PGA Tour to do this?


Discovery and depositions in a DJ vs PGA Tour lawsuit might have entertainment value.

Steve Salmen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2022, 02:59:43 PM »
Are all participants in the London event banned from future PGA events barring litigation?


Will we see Louis at St. Andrews?


Will Fred Ridley invite DJ back to the Masters?


Would not several problems disappear if we were energy independent? I have a hard time being upset at golfers taking the Saudi $$ when a lot the $$ comes from us. Are we outraged that kids of the Saudi Royal family go to American schools? We are complicit and seem to find it easy to target golfers. Quite unfairly, IMO, for repatriating the $$.

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2022, 03:01:03 PM »
So RBC decided to drop Dustin Johnson and Graham McDowell based on “just because“ principles?  And they weren’t nudged or otherwise asked by the PGA Tour to do this?


Discovery and depositions in a DJ vs PGA Tour lawsuit might have entertainment value.
I think in RBC's case it was because they dropped out of RBC's marquee event.  I doubt that RBC is going to jeopardize their business in the Kingdom on the basis of a moral stand against state-sanctioned murder.  Ditto for their business in genocidal China.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2022, 03:30:56 PM »
As Ian MacKenzie said, wait until the LIV gets to the US in early July at Pumpkin Ridge. There a number of local mayors wrote a letter against the event. It is reported that a number of people have resigned their membership from that club. Escalante Golf (a Texas LLC) owns that course and a number of others.
My take is that a number of members of the PGA Tour ages 35+ will be more prone to take the LIV money. More money less effort.
For all that the Khashoggi murder negatives, is that balanced by their stance on abortion: abortion in Saudi Arabia is [/size]legal only in cases of risk to a woman's life, fetal impairment, or to protect her physical and mental health[/color][/size].[/color][/size][size=78%] [/size]Their size of field (48 players into 16 or 24 groups) may lead to faster play,

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2022, 04:01:57 PM »
Anyway, how many PGA Tour events do you need to win to get £25m ?
It's not just PGA Tour payouts. DJ has lost sponsors.

Phil could have made $20M/year for the next 20 years between sponsorships and the Champions Tour. Will he get $400M out of this whole deal?

I don't know about any of you, but I feel bad for Phil. What he said any lawyer would have said in negotiations in PRIVATE on behalf of his client, except Phil said it to the wrong guy.  The old saying saying by Thomas Edison " You will have many opportunities in life to keep your mouth shut: You should take advantage of every one of them"

It's about more than what Phil SAID, and at least partly (perhaps even mostly) about what Phil DID.

I don't feel bad for Phil. It just is what it is. He reaped what he sowed.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 04:03:57 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, and Lifetime Student of the Game

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2022, 04:18:02 PM »
I think in RBC's case it was because they dropped out of RBC's marquee event.  I doubt that RBC is going to jeopardize their business in the Kingdom on the basis of a moral stand against state-sanctioned murder.  Ditto for their business in genocidal China.


When RBC-sponsored golfers have played in previous Saudi Invitationals, they’ve done so without the RBC branding that appears on their shirt every other week.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2022, 04:45:19 PM »
Ed Barzeski:

Will Phil get $400 MM from the LIV deal/ Who knows.  Would Phil have earned $20 MM/year for the next 20 years (playing & endorsements) - probably.


The Net present Value of $400MM over a 20 year period @ a discount rate (for inflation) of 5% is $250 MM; 7.5% - $200 MM


So would you take $20 MM/year for 2o years or $100 MM or $150 MM this year and next and march off into the sunset?  Me thinks the bird in hand (cash in the account) sooner rather than later is an option most would select.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2022, 04:46:27 PM »

These guys are independent contractors, not employees, and should be able to earn their living when and where they decide.



But...are you suggesting the PGA Tour should have to let them come and go as they please? If the Saudi's are effective, they will put the PGA TOUR substantially out of business.


You may doubt that, but please describe a scenario in which the LIV Tour is alive and well in 5 years and the PGA Tour product, with all its moving parts and beneficiaries, is unaffected.


Who cares?
Let the market decide....meaning US the viewers.


If the LIV tour sucks ass (like the USFL, WHL and ABA before that), then they crap out and investors/backers lose and the players who participated must deal with the fall out as they are gown-ass-men!


However, if "we the people" actually enjoy the product they are attempting to sell us - just like the PGA Tour sells us a product - then how is that a bad thing?


Sounds to me like the PGA Tour seeks to stifle competition and nothing could be more 1) un-American and 2) anti-capitalist.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2022, 04:47:38 PM »
I guarantee Justin Dustin has the money in an iron clad escrow account, to be released upon terms 100% favorable to him, probably equal to his projected earnings over the next 10 years.


Does anyone really think that DJ’s lawyers, accountants, financial advisors and business agents are going to let him twist in the wind for the money? I’m sure everything was factored in for purposes of what he stood to lose from sponsors and prize money on the PGA Tour versus his take from the LIV? Brandel Chamblee’s comments are complete conjecture with no basis in fact. I wonder what Rich Lerner thinks? ;)

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2022, 04:59:45 PM »
I think in RBC's case it was because they dropped out of RBC's marquee event.  I doubt that RBC is going to jeopardize their business in the Kingdom on the basis of a moral stand against state-sanctioned murder.  Ditto for their business in genocidal China.


When RBC-sponsored golfers have played in previous Saudi Invitationals, they’ve done so without the RBC branding that appears on their shirt every other week.
Graeme McDowell holds off Dustin Johnson to win Saudi event

David_Tepper

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Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2022, 05:04:43 PM »
While it is true that professional golfers are not employees of the PGA Tour, as noted in prior comments they do commit to and accept  certain proscribed obligations and parameters of activity/behavior when they choose to become members of the PGA Tour. They need to honor those commitments if they wish to retain their membership in the Tour and access to Tour competitions.

They also commit to accepting the judgement and discipline of the PGA Tour should certain situations or disputes arise.       

How all that plays out in a courtroom remains to be seen. ;)

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