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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Top 100 in GB&I
« on: May 27, 2022, 08:44:38 AM »
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2022, 08:52:06 AM »
With St Patrick's flying in, but Renaissance dropping significantly, it's certainly a bit of a curate's egg for Mr Doak.
F.
Assembled in Michigan from foreign parts.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2022, 11:22:28 AM »
Still no Forfar ? Shocking !


Niall

jeffwarne

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Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2022, 12:42:28 PM »
Still no Forfar ? Shocking !


Niall


+1
both Ballyliffin's make it and no Portsalon...
heavy sigh
If #1 green and hole #2 at Portsalon don't grab you(with a lot of quirk, charm and beauty ahead)
well I'm flabbergasted...

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2022, 01:11:16 PM »
Quite a few significant up/down moves in the mid and lower positions. I note a noble Scottish links is positioned above (rightly so?) its slightly more northern photogenic nearish neighbours, donít recall seeing that in such a listing before, and Beau Desert isnít mentioned. Mind if some new ones are included some others have to drop out or the numbers wonít add up. But will the new inclusions hold their positions over the forthcoming years and will the recently renovated/restored maintain their position once others have been renovated/restored?

Atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2022, 02:28:29 PM »
David


I must admit, I was wondering what courses had dropped out. Was Shiskine not on this list at one point ?


Niall

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2022, 05:55:18 PM »
Moray, Royal Ashdown Forest, Castletown, Wentworth East and Woburn Marquess dropped out.  Iím pretty sure Shiskine never made it on to this ranking; they donít even have it in their Scottish top 100! 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2022, 06:31:57 PM »
David


I must admit, I was wondering what courses had dropped out. Was Shiskine not on this list at one point ?


Niall

I am sure Shiskine was on the Golfworld top 100 about 25 years ago... or whatever the big name British mag was called. Their list used to be the only real list and it was awful.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South & Crystal Downs

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2022, 06:53:19 PM »
Iíd like to see Westward Ho! Saunton West, and Beau Desert on the list. The first two might be a stretch but the third belongs.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

John Handley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2022, 08:50:39 PM »
I like their lists too BUT......having played 33 of the top 100 and 16 of the top 24, I just cannot understand The Renaissance Club not getting more love.  I spent a few days there last September and absolutely loved the place.  I think it is a very good golf course and the club and property itself is special.  I get that it's viewed as "Americanized" but who cares, I would go back in a heartbeat.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2022, 03:09:44 AM »
Iíd like to see Westward Ho! Saunton West, and Beau Desert on the list. The first two might be a stretch but the third belongs.

Which courses get moved out?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South & Crystal Downs

Richard Fisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2022, 03:45:47 AM »
I used to like the old Golf World listings c 2000, when they were at least reasonably thoroughly compiled, and the most recent GW/Todayís Golfer listing seemed like a return to form - with warm recognition of the massive GCA virtue of playability. I donít share the love of some of you for the Top 100í website listing (rather mean to Wales, with only one course in the top 75Ö) but taking this and GW and Golf Monthly and NCG together, youíd get a fairly representative idea of a general GB and I Top 100, with considerably more consistency in the Top Thirty than belowÖ


On the Wirral this week at Wirral Ladies (as was), Leasowe, Hoylake and Wallasey and will report back. My first exposure to the new Hoylake 13th/15th.


I do agree 100% that any British ranking list that doesnít include Westward Ho! Is fundamentally off beam. Ranís comments on his last photo tour of RND remain deeply resonant.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2022, 09:23:14 AM »
With St Patrick's flying in, but Renaissance dropping significantly, it's certainly a bit of a curate's egg for Mr Doak.
F.


I donít worry much about rankings anymore, but I certainly didnít lose any sleep over this particular trade.


I do think it shows that there are some voters who think too much about who the architect is.  Either they had Renaissance too high because they thought I should have one course ranked highly over there, or theyíve knocked it down too far because they donít think I should have two.  Renaissance certainly hasnít gone backwards over the last two years, it has only gotten better.  But, again, worrying about the collected thoughts of people you donít even know would be pointless.

David Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2022, 10:55:56 AM »
David


I must admit, I was wondering what courses had dropped out. Was Shiskine not on this list at one point ?


Niall

I am sure Shiskine was on the Golfworld top 100 about 25 years ago... or whatever the big name British mag was called. Their list used to be the only real list and it was awful.

Ciao


You have a good memory. Shiskine was in position 96 in 1994, a few places below Hanbury Manor, Slaley Hall and St Mellion


Westward Ho! was in position 86 that year, it dropped out for good in 2002.


I am a bit biased towards Golf World but I think a combination of the Golf World and Top 100 rankings is pretty good these days. I have little time for the Golf Monthly one I am afraid (they have Adare Manor at 23, Old Head at 33, Cruden Bay at 69....).


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2022, 12:02:27 PM »
David

I must admit, I was wondering what courses had dropped out. Was Shiskine not on this list at one point ?

Niall

I am sure Shiskine was on the Golfworld top 100 about 25 years ago... or whatever the big name British mag was called. Their list used to be the only real list and it was awful.

Ciao

You have a good memory. Shiskine was in position 96 in 1994, a few places below Hanbury Manor, Slaley Hall and St Mellion

Westward Ho! was in position 86 that year, it dropped out for good in 2002.

I am a bit biased towards Golf World but I think a combination of the Golf World and Top 100 rankings is pretty good these days. I have little time for the Golf Monthly one I am afraid (they have Adare Manor at 23, Old Head at 33, Cruden Bay at 69....).

I remember Westward Ho! being a fixture on the list as well, although I think it may be just about good enough to still be on the list.

I think a decent case can be made for every course I know on this list.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South & Crystal Downs

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2022, 01:33:20 PM »
With St Patrick's flying in, but Renaissance dropping significantly, it's certainly a bit of a curate's egg for Mr Doak.
F.


I do think it shows that there are some voters who think too much about who the architect is.


Insert the word "golfers" for voters and you've really summed it up.


Which is a relatively new phenomena.





"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2022, 03:59:48 PM »
David

I must admit, I was wondering what courses had dropped out. Was Shiskine not on this list at one point ?

Niall

I am sure Shiskine was on the Golfworld top 100 about 25 years ago... or whatever the big name British mag was called. Their list used to be the only real list and it was awful.

Ciao

You have a good memory. Shiskine was in position 96 in 1994, a few places below Hanbury Manor, Slaley Hall and St Mellion

Westward Ho! was in position 86 that year, it dropped out for good in 2002.

I am a bit biased towards Golf World but I think a combination of the Golf World and Top 100 rankings is pretty good these days. I have little time for the Golf Monthly one I am afraid (they have Adare Manor at 23, Old Head at 33, Cruden Bay at 69....).

I remember Westward Ho! being a fixture on the list as well, although I think it may be just about good enough to still be on the list.

I think a decent case can be made for every course I know on this list.

Ciao


Westward Ho! is now back in the Golf World list.  It was at no.89 in the list released a couple of months ago. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2022, 04:31:35 AM »
David

I must admit, I was wondering what courses had dropped out. Was Shiskine not on this list at one point ?

Niall

I am sure Shiskine was on the Golfworld top 100 about 25 years ago... or whatever the big name British mag was called. Their list used to be the only real list and it was awful.

Ciao

You have a good memory. Shiskine was in position 96 in 1994, a few places below Hanbury Manor, Slaley Hall and St Mellion

Westward Ho! was in position 86 that year, it dropped out for good in 2002.

I am a bit biased towards Golf World but I think a combination of the Golf World and Top 100 rankings is pretty good these days. I have little time for the Golf Monthly one I am afraid (they have Adare Manor at 23, Old Head at 33, Cruden Bay at 69....).

I remember Westward Ho! being a fixture on the list as well, although I think it may be just about good enough to still be on the list.

I think a decent case can be made for every course I know on this list.

Ciao


Westward Ho! is now back in the Golf World list.  It was at no.89 in the list released a couple of months ago.

I am not sure RND would make my Top 100 if I played all the contenders. But it is a high quality course regardless.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South & Crystal Downs

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2022, 06:04:57 AM »
Sean


I agree on RND although I was utterly charmed by the clubhouse and to a degree the course. There's just a bit too much blandness on some of the holes to counteract the really good ones.


Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2022, 06:53:54 AM »
I used to like the old Golf World listings c 2000, when they were at least reasonably thoroughly compiled, and the most recent GW/Todayís Golfer listing seemed like a return to form - with warm recognition of the massive GCA virtue of playability. I donít share the love of some of you for the Top 100í website listing (rather mean to Wales, with only one course in the top 75Ö) but taking this and GW and Golf Monthly and NCG together, youíd get a fairly representative idea of a general GB and I Top 100, with considerably more consistency in the Top Thirty than belowÖ



Overall I thought the listing is fairly solid and don't really see any obvious courses that shouldn't have been considered even if I thought some too high and others I'd have gladly taken out to allow others in. However I wonder about the methodology of ranking, or to be more precise the concern that it has become self-perpetuating, broken only by raters rushing to see the new or the greatly upgraded.


With all respects to raters, many of whom are on this site and are friends of mine, I'd suggest that a flying visit to a course isn't the best way of judging a course's overall merit even though the "first impression" judgement is the same that most other visitors will make.


I'd suggest instead taking a leaf out of the Eurovision Song Contest (yes, seriously !) and having a local "competition" to decide what courses go through for the final judgement/ranking with only local golfers deciding on the local rankings. That way you would at least have a more considered judgement, assuming of course that the locals were a good bit more familiar with the local candidates than an out of town rater would be.


I'm not sure how it would work in practice, but the local ranking would have some sort of weighting when being ranked overall.


Of course the tricky bit would be how many candidates from a local area should be put forward when you think of the strength of depth that Ayrshire or East Lothian has for instance, compared to other areas.


Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2022, 12:50:06 PM »
I used to like the old Golf World listings c 2000, when they were at least reasonably thoroughly compiled, and the most recent GW/Todayís Golfer listing seemed like a return to form - with warm recognition of the massive GCA virtue of playability. I donít share the love of some of you for the Top 100í website listing (rather mean to Wales, with only one course in the top 75Ö) but taking this and GW and Golf Monthly and NCG together, youíd get a fairly representative idea of a general GB and I Top 100, with considerably more consistency in the Top Thirty than belowÖ



Overall I thought the listing is fairly solid and don't really see any obvious courses that shouldn't have been considered even if I thought some too high and others I'd have gladly taken out to allow others in. However I wonder about the methodology of ranking, or to be more precise the concern that it has become self-perpetuating, broken only by raters rushing to see the new or the greatly upgraded.


With all respects to raters, many of whom are on this site and are friends of mine, I'd suggest that a flying visit to a course isn't the best way of judging a course's overall merit even though the "first impression" judgement is the same that most other visitors will make.


I'd suggest instead taking a leaf out of the Eurovision Song Contest (yes, seriously !) and having a local "competition" to decide what courses go through for the final judgement/ranking with only local golfers deciding on the local rankings. That way you would at least have a more considered judgement, assuming of course that the locals were a good bit more familiar with the local candidates than an out of town rater would be.


I'm not sure how it would work in practice, but the local ranking would have some sort of weighting when being ranked overall.


Of course the tricky bit would be how many candidates from a local area should be put forward when you think of the strength of depth that Ayrshire or East Lothian has for instance, compared to other areas.


Niall


Well, if you don't have a problem with the results, whats the problem?


I reckon once a new editor comes into a ranking system it will take 4-5 cycles to get the ranking to properly reflect what the new regime represents. I spose you could take issue with the impact of editor, but I think the lists are more or less operating in a very similar manner and the results are becoming more similar.


It is highly interesting that a few editors have recognized that to differentiate their publication they must think outside the box with different rankings other than the traditional top 100. These new rankings have been far more entertaining and useful for me.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South & Crystal Downs

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2022, 04:02:48 PM »
I am not sure RND would make my Top 100 if I played all the contenders. But it is a high quality course regardless.
Ciao
UK golf visitor £5 RND tax?! :)
Atb
« Last Edit: June 04, 2022, 04:39:34 PM by Thomas Dai »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2022, 04:45:27 PM »
As most of you know I love Westward Ho! Some greens demand an aerial attack and others need to be played along the ground. It has bumpy turny rolly polly fairways and interesting greens. 1, 2, and 18 are on heavy ground but are still good holes. One is a very fun par five with options on the second shot. 2 is just ok and 18 a card wrecker. 3-10 are just terrific. I don't know if it belongs in the top 100 GB&I but it contends.
I hope the new holes came out well. I haven't seen them yet.
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2022, 05:38:47 PM »
I am not sure RND would make my Top 100 if I played all the contenders. But it is a high quality course regardless.
Ciao
UK golf visitor £5 RND tax?! :)
Atb

English golf visitor £5 tax...fer sure. Inflation...£10.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South & Crystal Downs

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 100 in GB&I
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2022, 11:32:39 AM »
Well, if you don't have a problem with the results, whats the problem?

I reckon once a new editor comes into a ranking system it will take 4-5 cycles to get the ranking to properly reflect what the new regime represents. I spose you could take issue with the impact of editor, but I think the lists are more or less operating in a very similar manner and the results are becoming more similar.

It is highly interesting that a few editors have recognized that to differentiate their publication they must think outside the box with different rankings other than the traditional top 100. These new rankings have been far more entertaining and useful for me.


Ciao


I don't have a problem as such but I do think that it could be better and what I'm proposing would hopefully do that. With the best will in the world to raters, they are trying to distinguish the top 100 out of how many ? 200 to 300 possible candidates perhaps ?


Again with the best will in the world, how many do they actually see and how many get any more than a single play. More or less making a judgement based on a fleeting glance. And yet how often do we say on this site that you need to play a course a number of times to unlock its secrets and to see how good it is. The converse is true with courses where there initial appeal lies in their aesthetics and once you've played them a number of times you realise that they aren't nearly as good as you initially thought.


Weighting opinion based on local opinion might go some way to addressing that.


Niall






 

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